Regional Airlines Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience Mandate

[tlove482]

I don't. I've got more than a few hours, less than a lot. IIRC, just about to break 5k (haven't bothered looking/totaling the pages in a while). I still realize that there is a lot I don't know, and IMO, I know just enough to not be dangerous. Personally, I think the 1500hrs thing, with the carve outs it complete BS. No amount of studying is going to prepare you for that first real winter storm, when you are deicing, figuring out HOT's, getting a call from the back about the passenger that just got up to use the Lav, getting pulled out of line because he hasn't come out yet, then the snow intensifies, RVR is getting lower so you have to let dispatch know you now need a T/O alternate, do we have the fuel, how close are we to out HOT? The printer just ran out of paper, I need to have the FA bring up a new roll to print the amended release. How long can we sit here and still have the fuel to launch? "Bing Bong"...."Is that passenger back in his seat yet? We're next in line!!!" Is the QRH finished for de-icing? Did we run the checklists? Here come the T/O brief. Wait, the last airplane just reported braking action of poor/nil. Now they have to run the truck down the runway for a MU value. We have 6 minutes left in our HOT. "I'll re-run the numbers with the latest report to make sure we are legal, then we'll re-run that checklist again when I set the new numbers."

Dealing with crappy weather to get airborne is a very dynamic environment. Landing behind an airplane that just reported braking action as poor/nil can really screw up your day. Don't kid yourself. Reading a book, studying for a test can not compare to actually trying to get airborne legally.

That sounds like a bad day. I don't think anything can prepare you for that.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Bad days prepare you for other bad days in a way that's hard to articulate or measure but which is also 100% real and meaningful. Er, IMHO.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

I don't. I've got more than a few hours, less than a lot. IIRC, just about to break 5k (haven't bothered looking/totaling the pages in a while). I still realize that there is a lot I don't know, and IMO, I know just enough to not be dangerous. Personally, I think the 1500hrs thing, with the carve outs it complete BS. No amount of studying is going to prepare you for that first real winter storm, when you are deicing, figuring out HOT's, getting a call from the back about the passenger that just got up to use the Lav, getting pulled out of line because he hasn't come out yet, then the snow intensifies, RVR is getting lower so you have to let dispatch know you now need a T/O alternate, do we have the fuel, how close are we to out HOT? The printer just ran out of paper, I need to have the FA bring up a new roll to print the amended release. How long can we sit here and still have the fuel to launch? "Bing Bong"...."Is that passenger back in his seat yet? We're next in line!!!" Is the QRH finished for de-icing? Did we run the checklists? Here come the T/O brief. Wait, the last airplane just reported braking action of poor/nil. Now they have to run the truck down the runway for a MU value. We have 6 minutes left in our HOT. "I'll re-run the numbers with the latest report to make sure we are legal, then we'll re-run that checklist again when I set the new numbers."

Dealing with crappy weather to get airborne is a very dynamic environment. Landing behind an airplane that just reported braking action as poor/nil can really screw up your day. Don't kid yourself. Reading a book, studying for a test can not compare to actually trying to get airborne legally.

I'm trying to figure out what you disagreed with.

The premise of my post is that you could plug numbers into the variables I identified and put together a stronger R-ATP than the current standard.

I haven't really said anything that dramatic.

 

[hook_dupin]

The premise of my post is that you could plug numbers into the variables I identified and put together a stronger R-ATP than the current standard.

Our law-making process does not use analytical models such as this to make most decisions

 

[mshunter]

That sounds like a bad day. I don't think anything can prepare you for that.

That's a typical winter day up north. It doesn't happen every flight, but it happens.

 

[FloridaLarry]

Our law-making process does not use analytical models such as this to make most decisions

Congressional and senate staffers make their living creating analytical models. Then the member goes and votes however s/he will. Political Science is an oxymoron.

 

[mshunter]

I'm trying to figure out what you disagreed with.

The premise of my post is that you could plug numbers into the variables I identified and put together a stronger R-ATP than the current standard.

I haven't really said anything that dramatic.

Giving someone what basically amounts to hours in their logbook for reading a book, taking a class, and passing a written test will never prepare you for that. It's just wrong.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

Giving someone what basically amounts to hours in their logbook for reading a book, taking a class, and passing a written test will never prepare you for that. It's just wrong.

I agree with you on the academic carve-outs. I was suggesting that you could create some additional R-ATP options that were damn strong.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Giving someone what basically amounts to hours in their logbook for reading a book, taking a class, and passing a written test will never prepare you for that. It's just wrong.

I know this is an unpopular opinion 'round here, but my degree in not crashing airplanes has been more helpful than expected.

I won't say it's necessary to be successful, but saying that studying something for 4 (ok...more than 4) years isn't beneficial is just stupid.

 

[Roger Roger]

I know this is an unpopular opinion 'round here, but my degree in not crashing airplanes has been more helpful than expected.

I won't say it's necessary to be successful, but saying that studying something for 4 (ok...more than 4) years isn't beneficial is just stupid.

If you think book larnin' is viewed with a jaded eye in the flying world, you should see maintenance. Oh a college boy eh? Lemme tell yew wut, I been workin on these things since I could walk. Well guess what, I use stuff I learned in my degree program literally every day and it's a large part of why I'm any good at what I do. That's why I try to tell people it's important not to just check the box but *gasp* get a good education in the process.

 

[mshunter]

I know this is an unpopular opinion 'round here, but my degree in not crashing airplanes has been more helpful than expected.

I won't say it's necessary to be successful, but saying that studying something for 4 (ok...more than 4) years isn't beneficial is just stupid.

There is no denying that an aviation degree is much more beneficial for a pilot than a marketing degree. But we work in a dynamic environment. And there is only one substitute for experience, and that's more experience.

 

[mshunter]

I agree with you on the academic carve-outs. I was suggesting that you could create some additional R-ATP options that were damn strong.

IMO, setting arbitrary bench marks like this are dangerous. I'm am certain that there are going to be many more pencil whipped logbooks because of this regulation. Does there need to be some kind of mark, yes. But I admit, I don't have the solution.

 

[trafficinsight]

If you think book larnin' is viewed with a jaded eye in the flying world, you should see maintenance. Oh a college boy eh? Lemme tell yew wut, I been workin on these things since I could walk. Well guess what, I use stuff I learned in my degree program literally every day and it's a large part of why I'm any good at what I do. That's why I try to tell people it's important not to just check the box but *gasp* get a good education in the process.

God it horrifies me how many mechanics are willfully ignorant, dangerously anti-authority, and completely unwilling to open a book.

They learned everything they needed to know in farmer bob's fly by night A&P school 35 years ago.



Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[Screaming_Emu]

If you think book larnin' is viewed with a jaded eye in the flying world, you should see maintenance. Oh a college boy eh? Lemme tell yew wut, I been workin on these things since I could walk. Well guess what, I use stuff I learned in my degree program literally every day and it's a large part of why I'm any good at what I do. That's why I try to tell people it's important not to just check the box but *gasp* get a good education in the process.

Yup. It's pretty much what you make of it.

 

[Roger Roger]

God it horrifies me how many mechanics are willfully ignorant, dangerously anti-authority, and completely unwilling to open a book.

They learned everything they needed to know in farmer bob's fly by night A&P school 35 years ago.



Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

You should come to Alaska sometime.

 

[Boris Badenov]

I'm am certain that there are going to be many more pencil whipped logbooks because of this regulation.

I absolutely welcome more pencil whipped logbooks. They're laughably easy to spot with even the most trifling investigation. And since, at least In my view, honesty is the most valuable trait an employee can possess, the worst potential employees are essentially identifying themselves to the employer gratis.

 

[hook_dupin]

Congressional and senate staffers make their living creating analytical models. Then the member goes and votes however s/he will. Political Science is an oxymoron.

It's crazier than that. This whole line of thinking assumes there is something to be voted on. In most cases, the legislation will never make it to a floor vote anyway.

In my view, this is why third class medical reform will never happen: it doesn't affect enough people and there aren't any new corporate opportunities to make it worthwhile to bring to the floor. The only way I see it happening is if it gets rolled into the FAA's authorization act.

 

[Maurus]

I don't. I've got more than a few hours, less than a lot. IIRC, just about to break 5k (haven't bothered looking/totaling the pages in a while). I still realize that there is a lot I don't know, and IMO, I know just enough to not be dangerous. Personally, I think the 1500hrs thing, with the carve outs it complete BS. No amount of studying is going to prepare you for that first real winter storm, when you are deicing, figuring out HOT's, getting a call from the back about the passenger that just got up to use the Lav, getting pulled out of line because he hasn't come out yet, then the snow intensifies, RVR is getting lower so you have to let dispatch know you now need a T/O alternate, do we have the fuel, how close are we to out HOT? The printer just ran out of paper, I need to have the FA bring up a new roll to print the amended release. How long can we sit here and still have the fuel to launch? "Bing Bong"...."Is that passenger back in his seat yet? We're next in line!!!" Is the QRH finished for de-icing? Did we run the checklists? Here come the T/O brief. Wait, the last airplane just reported braking action of poor/nil. Now they have to run the truck down the runway for a MU value. We have 6 minutes left in our HOT. "I'll re-run the numbers with the latest report to make sure we are legal, then we'll re-run that checklist again when I set the new numbers."

Dealing with crappy weather to get airborne is a very dynamic environment. Landing behind an airplane that just reported braking action as poor/nil can really screw up your day. Don't kid yourself. Reading a book, studying for a test can not compare to actually trying to get airborne legally.

And yet we keep crashing planes because of pilots not having the basics of flying figured out (stalls) rather than the bad day you describe. Sure being a CFI for 1300 hours wont prepare a person for what you are talking about, but that isn't the point. The 1-2 years of doing stalls, slow flight, steep turns, ect are there to help cement the basics into your brain. Getting the • crap scared out of you and having to recover from a student's poor recovery attempt will teach a lot.

As we have sadly found out over the years airline training does not fill the holes.

 

[mshunter]

And yet we keep crashing planes because of pilots not having the basics of flying figured out (stalls) rather than the bad day you describe. Sure being a CFI for 1300 hours wont prepare a person for what you are talking about, but that isn't the point. The 1-2 years of doing stalls, slow flight, steep turns, ect are there to help cement the basics into your brain. Getting the crap scared out of you and having to recover from a student's poor recovery attempt will teach a lot.

As we have sadly found out over the years airline training does not fill the holes.

Like I said, I don't have the answer. But an R-ATP is a lobbied certificate, and short cuts exactly what you describe.

 

[BCTAv8r]

Yea, there is no good reason for the academic carve out. There are aviation degree students at my flight school that are going through the same training I am, but they get to go to the airlines 500 hours earlier just because it's what the universities lobbied for.