TWP
Well-Known Member
They can be hard to get depending on a persons situation. If they are lower income and have nobody willing to cosign they are often times out of luck.
Student loans could help avert U.S. airline pilot shortage: union head
- Thread starter derg
- Start date
They can be hard to get depending on a persons situation. If they are lower income and have nobody willing to cosign they are often times out of luck.
futurevagabondpilot
Roving Member
(I apologize in advance for the length of this post)
Contributing factors to the pilot shortage (in no particular order):
1. REQUIREMENT FOR A COLLEGE DEGREE
A degree is a good thing to have because it (usually) teaches a person to think and critically analyse the world around them. We need more of those people in our world today, as there are too many people worried about doing what is popular rather that what is right/makes the most sense.
However, a degree does NOT make a pilot a better pilot. Flight training makes a pilot a better pilot.
Believe me- I have done both.
Probably the first order of business is to eliminate the degree from the list of both required and preferred qualifications. If prospective pilots are going to school just so that they can have that extra qualification, then that is not only extremely wasteful, but quite frankly sets the bar unnecessarily high for those who can only afford flight school OR college, not both.
So why go to college? There are many good reasons. Me? I got my degree because I was genuinely interested in what I was studying, I enjoyed the academic work, and - last but not least - Daddy could not afford to put me through flight school, so I knew I would have to work a "real" job before I could get my dream job. Oh and then there's the lurking spectre of what could happen to your career if you somehow lose your medical or get violated- so a backup plan is nice.
But the reason you go to college should not be because you want to be an airline pilot. Forcing the unwilling to go to college is a disgusting waste of money in a system that constantly complains that there "isn't enough to go 'round". As AcroFox alluded, it seems to be a case of the system perpetuating itself.
As far as being able to differentiate between "equally-qualified candidates", well that is a fallacy for several reasons. First, no candidates are equally qualified to start with. This is obvious when you get them in the sim session (an evaluation that already exists). They may all be able to pass the sim, but are they equally-qualified? Doubt it. How good is their cockpit organization? How well do they anticipate things? How smooth are their control movements? Also, there are already well-established methods of ferreting out the "intangibles" in a a person's character, like attitude towards safety, level of respect for fellow co-workers and response to stressful situations- to name a few. These are things that can be rated on a scale instead of just pass/fail.
2. 1500 RULE AND HOUR-BUILDING
Wrong-headed regulatory changes have hurt the industry. I'm talking about aeronautical experience specifically. For example, both pilots in the Colgan Air disaster had over 1500 hrs. Not sure how the 1500 rule fixes anything when both pilots had 1500 already. Instead, perhaps there should be a more serious focus in the industry on crew rest/stress (rather that just the lip service and minimum required to satisfy regulations) and actually giving crewmembers a decent QOL. The copilot on the Colgan flight had to commute in from Seattle to Newark- and both pilots spent the night in the Newark airport- before the fateful flight.
These wrong-headed changes have caused pilots- after already paying for flight school- to delay their futures even more while they build their hours to ATP standards
Instead of raising the hourly requirements, they should have been lowered. Training a low-time pilot the way you want to train them is more effective than undoing bad habits learned while building hours up to 1500. Get 'em in the door early and train 'em yourself (for chrissake!). But ridiculously-long/indentured servitude commitments should not be required. Loyalty is given, not forced. The better you treat your employees (such as more on-the-job training, the more loyal they will naturally be. The more loyal your employees are, the more quality talent you can attract- and fewer bucks will be spent hiring new people to replace the old ones who quit. The more quality talent, the more efficient and profitable your business.
Anyhow, I argue the 1500 rule will ironically lead to less competent airline pilots overall- because more of those hours will be spent outside the airlines.
3. FLIGHT TRAINING EXPENSE/LACK OF STANDARDIZATION
A career as a flight instructor should be an ultimate destination, not a stepping stone. Why is it that the teachers of future pilots have almost no experience? Pilots should be trained by aviators who are at the END of their careers, not the beginning. The CFI should be a position of honour and respect, bestowed only upon those who are truly "masters". There should be less of them, and they should each make a boatload of money.
Since we were already discussing college, let's discuss it again. A student that pays to go to college will in most cases earn that degree in 4 years, for a fixed price. They earn grades in courses or they fail out and have to repeat the course. When planning for college, parents have a very good idea of each school's tuition (at least for that year).
Flight school is different. Instead of earning grades, you achieve pass/fail milestones, such as: first solo, first solo XC, end-of-course check, checkride. This causes flight school to be a non-fixed-price endeavour. Those who don't get A's don't get B's, C's or fail. They just have to pay more. I argue flight training should move to a standard where those who pass are graded on a sliding scale, and those who fail either have to drop out or have to repeat that "course". The fact that you can just pay more to get to the objective normalizes that situation. I think a lot of schools know this and milk it, encouraging students to "take it easy" and accomplish objectives "when they're ready". This, of course, increases the revenue at the flight school and the expense to the poor student. I argue that the current pass/fail/pay/repeat setup yields more expensive flight training.
Flight training produces pilots of varying quality. Why do we still hear that fully-certified pilots still don't know how to fly an airplane- or even why an airplane flies? We all know about the checkride PTS. But we also know that every conceivable maneuver isn't tested on the checkride- nor should they all be. Having to demonstrate that you are merely "good enough" is all it takes. Pilots can be good enough, but still have dangerous deficiencies. Standardized does not produce quality pilots- standardized training does.
We should have more standardized curriculum and more experienced CFIs, yet preserve the flexibility of the current system. Students should be graded throughout their education, and those who do not achieve the minimum grades should fail and have to repeat the course. You should then be able to take your GPA to a potential employer and use that as one of the potential factors in getting that job. However, I am not advocating for everyone to get an aviation degree- I am instead suggesting that there should be highly-standardized- and graded- fixed-cost, low-cost flight training that can be offered by any local CFI (not a university) which would in turn only be an individual who has achieved a minimum amount of career experience.
In summary, we all know these things- I don't even know why I am saying them, as I'm probably just preaching to the choir.
There are many people who want to fly in a respectable job where they can feed their families. There are people who will work for peanuts. There are qualified applicants. But are not enough qualifieds applicants who will work for peanuts. And unfortunately, that's what the regionals/airlines require, at least for the first few years.
It should no longer be they responsibility of prospective pilots. We have been shouldering this burden for too long.
It is now up to industry and government- working together- to fix this problem and bring the industry on par with others.
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SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
This is the entire problem. Cheap loans should never be made without judging creditworthiness. The idea that we throw money at people who have no demonstrated ability to pay it back is insane. And then these participation trophy wielding morons cry and want me and the rest of the taxpayers to bail them out. I think not.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Exactly. An undergraduate education isn't an investment or vocational school. You shouldn't want to, or expect to get a job as a philosopher or anthropologist. You should expect for a liberal arts program to provide you with a fundamental education that provides you with the tools to learn how to do damned near anything.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Where's the facebook thumbs up icon when you need one?
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/opinion/sunday/why-i-defaulted-on-my-student-loans.html?_r=0
"Years later, I found myself confronted with a choice that too many people have had to and will have to face. I could give up what had become my vocation (in my case, being a writer) and take a job that I didn’t want in order to repay the huge debt I had accumulated in college and graduate school. Or I could take what I had been led to believe was both the morally and legally reprehensible step of defaulting on my student loans, which was the only way I could survive without wasting my life in a job that had nothing to do with my particular usefulness to society.
I chose life. That is to say, I defaulted on my student loans."
Unbelievable listening to some of these idiots. I'm a writer... I could give that up and take a job I didn't want.... a job that would allow me to pay back my student debt.... but nah, I like writing, so screw my college debt and so I'll just default....
The government may be guilty, but at the end of the day:
Parents: You really think the world needs another drama major and do you really need to cosign a loan for an expensive private college to do it?
Students: Can you really feed yourself on your selected major?
Graduates: Three more years for a masters in fine arts? Are you just delaying the inevitable entry into the job market?
Gotta look in the mirror before blaming the government. Laying blame on the feds is easy and lets us shirk responsibility.
Parents: You really think the world needs another drama major and do you really need to cosign a loan for an expensive private college to do it?
Students: Can you really feed yourself on your selected major?
Graduates: Three more years for a masters in fine arts? Are you just delaying the inevitable entry into the job market?
Gotta look in the mirror before blaming the government. Laying blame on the feds is easy and lets us shirk responsibility.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
It's a shared responsibility, though. The students and parents are idiots for taking out these loans, but the government is just as idiotic in backing these loans. They would never be made through the private sector.
Lawman
Well-Known Member
You gotta wonder what people are thinking sitting in an Intro to Art History class with 90 other people, because it damn sure isn't, "I wonder how many jobs there are in is field?"
uncreative
Well-Known Member
Maybe they can follow the typical union model of apprenticeships. Go down to the hall because your dad was an airline pilot, sign up for training, take the test, put in your time, become a journeyman and fly jets!
KLB
Well-Known Member
This works for wealthy people. It does not work so well for the working class people. It's all apart of the vicious cycle for blue collar folk. They have to claw their way out of their social class to get to the next level. And they literally can't afford to do something just for the "life experience". My dad wanted to become more of a knowledgeable individual and couldn't afford to go to college. He read books and researched things. That's how a man, who had to leave school in order to help his family out financially and it took a couple of tries to make it all the way through his senior year of high school, can explain homosexuality by discussing X and Y chromosomes at the age of 69.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Of which the government backs. I have a feeling this is going to blow up in their face one day and we the taxpayers will be on the hook for the 1 trillion dollar figure.
Cessnaflyer
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
When I had my student loans I only had $8,000 yearly income. I couldn't imagine I was considered a higher earner and not at risk of default at the time. I also had some Pell grants that were able to take care of most of my class costs. I wish I was smarter back then and applied for every available scholarship. I probably wouldn't have had the student loans that I did have.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Ugh. Look in the mirror first, Sir.
Not even kidding, that's how I'd eliminate candidates. Give me a resume pile of 10 I'll happily weed out at least 5 based on spelling and grammar alone.
Delta actually sends out "fix it!" emails. Apparently even Tier 1 candidates can't follow the directions written clearly in Airlineapps.
TWP
Well-Known Member
It certainly is strange. When I went through (not that long ago, I finished my training in 2010) I could log online and have 20k coming my way within 15 minutes. Then 2008 happened, the student loan companies really tightened up for awhile, and as of late they are kind of in the middle. Also, it seems to mostly affect the students who are financing the entire thing (like I did) about half way through. I'm assuming the loan company sees a high debt-income ratio and doesn't care that they stop the guy half way through the training, effectively hurting themselves as well as the student.
KLB
Well-Known Member
The government has been tightening the reigns on student loans a bit. It's sort of a doubled edge sword. It really affects minorities who could use the loans practically to get get meaningful degrees.
ppragman
No pasa nada.
Universities: "We can charge whatever the hell we want."
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
It is possible for a lower class working person to pull themselves out without asking for government handouts to go to a fancy school.
My wife was the first person to graduate from high school. She got a two year academic scholarship to a junior college.
She earned enough money over the summers to go to a small, no name university her junior year.
She showed up on a bus her junior year with $5k cash in her pocket. After tuition, books, room she had $100/month for food. She made ends meet by cleaning houses.
Her senior year she did get a "handout". A one year ROTC scholarship. She thought she'd hit the jackpot. She was the first in her family to earn a college degree. That summer her mom got her GED and started college that fall.
Unfortunately I think we will. Free stuff has become the buzz word. Ask not what you can do for your country, ask what free stuff you can get from your country.
My wife was the first person to graduate from high school. She got a two year academic scholarship to a junior college.
She earned enough money over the summers to go to a small, no name university her junior year.
She showed up on a bus her junior year with $5k cash in her pocket. After tuition, books, room she had $100/month for food. She made ends meet by cleaning houses.
Her senior year she did get a "handout". A one year ROTC scholarship. She thought she'd hit the jackpot. She was the first in her family to earn a college degree. That summer her mom got her GED and started college that fall.
Unfortunately I think we will. Free stuff has become the buzz word. Ask not what you can do for your country, ask what free stuff you can get from your country.
Cessnaflyer
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
The last loan I had was dispersed in 2010 so I probably missed the tightening of the belt. Sucks big time! There are so many things that need to change to our education system from the bottom to the top.
I think the best education we should start shifting to is what Germany has been doing with their dual education system. Not everyone is wired for high academia of Universities but can excel at other tracks that are highly productive and profitable.
NPR had a little story about it here. http://www.npr.org/2012/04/04/149927290/the-secret-to-germanys-low-youth-unemployment
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Cessnaflyer said:
But then little Sussie Dumbass won't get to feel special!
I swear, the participation trophy mentality is going to ruin this country. A nation full of idiots with worthless college degrees funded by the taxpayer.
Fully agree.
I think if I had a kid, which I don't, and he wanted to study something in "STEM", I'd cover that. But if they wanted to study "Underwater Basketweaving" and live on my dime for four-plus years, I'd probably die laughing.