Student loans could help avert U.S. airline pilot shortage: union head

[Cessnaflyer]

You gotta wonder what people are thinking sitting in an Intro to Art History class with 90 other people, because it damn sure isn't, "I wonder how many jobs there are in is field?"

I know this is out of the norm for the degree but I have a few friends that are directors for Vulcan and J. P. Morgan's art collection and they would put 99.9% of pilots salary and benefits to shame. The arts are a good minor but you have to be on the right track out of the gate to make it a successful career.

 

[jtrain609]

Fully agree.

I think if I had a kid, which I don't, and he wanted to study something in "STEM", I'd cover that. But if they wanted to study "Underwater Basketweaving" and live on my dime for four-plus years, I'd probably die laughing.

Without my philosophy degree, I would have never been prepared to go to law school.

 

[derg]

I know this is out of the norm for the degree but I have a few friends that are directors for Vulcan and J. P. Morgan's art collection and they would put 99.9% of pilots salary and benefits to shame. The arts are a good minor but you have to be on the right track out of the gate to make it a successful career.

That's cool, but there are what, maybe less than 100 jobs like that and we're cranking out how many thousands of special daughters and special sons every semester that have degrees in Art History?

Do what you love and the money will follow —

 

[🦈💜]

It is possible for a lower class working person to pull themselves out without asking for government handouts to go to a fancy school.
My wife was the first person to graduate from high school. She got a two year academic scholarship to a junior college.
She earned enough money over the summers to go to a small, no name university her junior year.
She showed up on a bus her junior year with $5k cash in her pocket. After tuition, books, room she had $100/month for food. She made ends meet by cleaning houses.
Her senior year she did get a "handout". A one year ROTC scholarship. She thought she'd hit the jackpot. She was the first in her family to earn a college degree. That summer her mom got her GED and started college that fall.

So did she graduate in 2015, or was it 2014? Cradle robber!

-Fox

 

[Blackhawk]

So did she graduate in 2015, or was it 2014? Cradle robber!

-Fox

No, this was... "a few years ago".

Flash forward. She is going through a pretty prestigious fellowship after her residency. A fall Friday the subject of college football games that weekend comes up amongst the fellows. Harvard is playing Yale. Stanford is playing USC. So of course someone asks where she went to school and who they are play. "University of North Alabama. I think we play Valdosta State." She said the look on everyone's faces was like they suddenly realized they had let the garbage collector into the king's court.

 

[🦈💜]

No, this was... "a few years ago".

Right. I want you to be aware that that fact is germane to the discussion—the current issue has really begun to take shape in the past decade, and most noticeably in the past four to five years. Before that, the balance of facts was substantively different. Before the late 90s, it was different still. The change has not been progressive and linear.

-Fox

 

[KLB]

No, this was... "a few years ago".

Flash forward. She is going through a pretty prestigious fellowship after her residency. A fall Friday the subject of college football games that weekend comes up amongst the fellows. Harvard is playing Yale. Stanford is playing USC. So of course someone asks where she went to school and who they are play. "University of North Alabama. I think we play Valdosta State." She said the look on everyone's faces was like they suddenly realized they had let the garbage collector into the king's court.

I went to Delta State, which is in the same conference. The rivalry is fears between most football teams in the conference!

 

[KLB]

Without my philosophy degree, I would have never been prepared to go to law school.

I couldn't do that unless it could be applied to my career somehow. I can't afford to just be getting degrees just to be getting them. I do understand that you did it while on furlough and had a sugar momma supporting you though.

 

[Cessnaflyer]

That's cool, but there are what, maybe less than 100 jobs like that and we're cranking out how many thousands of special daughters and special sons every semester that have degrees in Art History?

Do what you love and the money will follow —

View attachment 33015​

Yeah it's out of the norm for sure. But it's easy and they can check the college box I guess they got one leg up better than I do.

I think that also has to do with forcing a child through a system before they are ready. Most aren't completely set on what they want to do even when they graduate.

 

[Blackhawk]

Right. I want you to be aware that that fact is germane to the discussion—the current issue has really begun to take shape in the past decade, and most noticeably in the past four to five years. Before that, the balance of facts was substantively different. Before the late 90s, it was different still. The change has not been progressive and linear.
-Fox

No, the balance of facts has not changed. The economic fact is that if "free money" chases a product the cost of that product will skyrocket.
There also are still good values in college education out there. Community colleges are often good deals for the first two years. Many "second tier" colleges are also good values but you won't run up $200k in student loans.

 

[🦈💜]

No, the balance of facts has not changed. The economic fact is that if "free money" chases a product the cost of that product will skyrocket.
There also are still good values in college education out there. Community colleges are often good deals for the first two years. Many "second tier" colleges are also good values but you won't run up $200k in student loans.

"... back in my day, I got a nickel for mowing a whole lawn! I saved up and used that to pay for flight training in a pretty yellow J3 cub. I just offered some kid a whole dollar to do my lawn, and he refused! Twenty times what I got paid back then! Kids these days... worthless and entitled. No work ethic... just want everything handed to them."

Listen... a gruelling "summer job" plus a part time winter job doesn't pay your way through two-year degree for Joe McMurnah Community College anymore, much less a two-year degree and a place to live and food to eat. And a two-year degree is considered pretty much worthless. So you either start with money, work your butt off, and end with less... or you take loans, work your butt off, and end up in a gigantic hole. Or you take loans, dedicate yourself to studying, and end up with a crushing mass of debt by the time you're done with a four-year degree.

Or daddy pays for it all.

The ratios have changed, altering the material balance of your argument—I know far too many college students working two (And in one case three) jobs, desperately scrambling to keep themselves afloat while attending community college to lend any credibility to "Well, I pulled myself up by my bootstraps, and so can you."
Cost of living is up, tuition is WAY up, and everything costs more. Jobs pay less, relative to inflation, and we're divesting ourself of "career" jobs like there's no tomorrow.

I don't disagree that "free money", in the form of loans, is absolutely instrumental in creating this problem... but it shares blame with the attitude that everyone needs a college degree, and the utilization of a college degree primarily an instrument of hiring. People are told that taking those loans is their only way out, and so they do.

I'm just a simple fox—I can't tell you how society can fix this mess. All I can do is call out the massive infrastructural problems that I see.

-Fox

 

[ppragman]

No, the balance of facts has not changed. The economic fact is that if "free money" chases a product the cost of that product will skyrocket.
There also are still good values in college education out there. Community colleges are often good deals for the first two years. Many "second tier" colleges are also good values but you won't run up $200k in student loans.

Actually, that's not true, and it's not really about free money. There's no such thing, it's about who's paying for it and the role of the state in providing an education.

I'm just going to leave this right here:

http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/Inflation_Articles/Education_Inflation.asp

And this:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-in-the-u-s-again-rises-faster-than-inflation

DO YOU WANT TO KNOW MORE?

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/06/16/why-college-costs-are-so-high-and-rising.html

So if the cost of providing an education has remained fairly stable, why does the price students pay keep rising?

The reason, say researchers, is that deep budget cuts in state funding for public higher education and shrinking subsidies at private schools have pushed a greater share of the cost onto students and their families.

The emphasis is mine.

<rant below, not directly targeted at @Blackhawk, beware!>

I always loved the "blame the victim" mentality that somehow it's the students' fault that the cost of education is wildly unaffordable. "If these damn kids would just work harder, they'd have less debt." "Well, she was asking for it, look at how short her skirt is?!" Good luck with that. I worked my way through college by paying my "higher education" tuition with the money I made flying airplanes for a living. Learning to fly was still a $45,000 investment which was impossible for an 18 year old kid to come up with out of pocket with the qualifications a highschool education gives you. If you don't come from a "well off" family, your choices are "join the military" or "get student loans" if you want to be able to get a lucrative job as rapidly as possible.

To this, people usually say, "well why do you need to get a lucrative job so quickly?" This is foolish. I have made substantially more money and had a substantially higher quality of life than if I were to have been a carpenter or a ditch digger for 6 years to pay for my flight training. Also, in an industry where "experience and seniority is everything" it's hypocritical to suggest that you're better off to enter the game later rather than sooner. It's more "I've got mine, F-off!" Because I bit the bullet and got student loans at 18, I can enjoy the youth of my kids in a job I where my wife doesn't have to work in Hawaii. If I didn't do that, having kids would have likely been financially impossible. If I didn't do that, I'd have been setting myself back almost a decade worth of progress towards having a house, being able to retire, being able to send my kids to college. Education prices are way to high, yes, but unless you are in the minority of people who can get away without it and still prosper, an education of some sort (in my case, aviation - which is "vocational") correlates with income over your lifetime. Get the education, by hook or crook!

 

[🦈💜]

DO YOU WANT TO KNOW MORE?

I'm doing my part. Are you?

-Fox

 

[jtrain609]

I couldn't do that unless it could be applied to my career somehow. I can't afford to just be getting degrees just to be getting them. I do understand that you did it while on furlough and had a sugar momma supporting you though.

My wife kept the lights on, student loans paid the tuition bills.

 

[Blackhawk]

Actually, that's not true, and it's not really about free money. There's no such thing, it's about who's paying for it and the role of the state in providing an education.

I'm just going to leave this right here:
View attachment 33017

http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/Inflation_Articles/Education_Inflation.asp

And this:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-in-the-u-s-again-rises-faster-than-inflation

DO YOU WANT TO KNOW MORE?

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/06/16/why-college-costs-are-so-high-and-rising.html


The emphasis is mine.

<rant below, not directly targeted at @Blackhawk, beware!>

I always loved the "blame the victim" mentality that somehow it's the students' fault that the cost of education is wildly unaffordable. "If these damn kids would just work harder, they'd have less debt." "Well, she was asking for it, look at how short her skirt is?!" Good luck with that. I worked my way through college by paying my "higher education" tuition with the money I made flying airplanes for a living. Learning to fly was still a $45,000 investment which was impossible for an 18 year old kid to come up with out of pocket with the qualifications a highschool education gives you. If you don't come from a "well off" family, your choices are "join the military" or "get student loans" if you want to be able to get a lucrative job as rapidly as possible.

To this, people usually say, "well why do you need to get a lucrative job so quickly?" This is foolish. I have made substantially more money and had a substantially higher quality of life than if I were to have been a carpenter or a ditch digger for 6 years to pay for my flight training. Also, in an industry where "experience and seniority is everything" it's hypocritical to suggest that you're better off to enter the game later rather than sooner. It's more "I've got mine, F-off!" Because I bit the bullet and got student loans at 18, I can enjoy the youth of my kids in a job I where my wife doesn't have to work in Hawaii. If I didn't do that, having kids would have likely been financially impossible. If I didn't do that, I'd have been setting myself back almost a decade worth of progress towards having a house, being able to retire, being able to send my kids to college. Education prices are way to high, yes, but unless you are in the minority of people who can get away without it and still prosper, an education of some sort (in my case, aviation - which is "vocational") correlates with income over your lifetime. Get the education, by hook or crook!

I don't think you understand, but you are proving my point. The government got involved in "making education affordable for all" and in the process they caused the price of education to skyrocket. Again, basic economics. You get more dollars chasing a good or service that can not keep pace with demand and costs skyrocket. This is especially true when those involved (students and parents), are told to ignore the cost of college. That it will pay for itself.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I wonder what would happen if the government would stop giving loans for students?

 

[Blackhawk]

I wonder what would happen if the government would stop giving loans for students?

The problem has been incremental. At each step of the way the government stepped in to "help make college more affordable" but only made the inflation problem worse in the process.
If the government stopped making the loans the private industry would step back in. They would charge more for the loans and might demand some proof that someone would pay back the loan, but the loans would be available at market price. Colleges would be forced to control their costs. They might have to close down the indoor water recreation centers and cut the Multicultural LGBT Literature (between 1850-1890) Major.

 

[Cav]

It's a little simplistic to state that all liberal arts degrees are a waste of money. Where is it from? How did the student perform? Did the student publish anything? Any internship in important places like Captiol Hill? The list is endless. I know just as many people that I went to school with that are now surgeons who were history majors as I do surgeons who majored in biology. I know plenty of Wall Street investment banking analysts that were Art History majors. I know plenty of attorneys that majored in Chemistry. Many here are overstating the necessity of getting a degree in a certain field. How you perform, what you did on the edges, and the name on the diploma make a big difference. Of course if loan candidates were reviewed in a manner consistent with say getting a mortgage, all of these details would be factored in.

But back to the topic at hand. The issue with student loans is that they are unsustainable at their current level because like @ATN_Pilot stated there's no way they would be issued if an institution was reviewing the candidate based on normal risk criteria. Government coercion at its finest and no sane politician is going to tell voters that the practice needs to be curtailed.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Without my philosophy degree, I would have never been prepared to go to law school.

There's actually a 4-yr degree in philosophy? LOL

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

It's a little simplistic to state that all liberal arts degrees are a waste of money. Where is it from? How did the student perform? Did the student publish anything? Any internship in important places like Captiol Hill? The list is endless. I know just as many people that I went to school with that are now surgeons who were history majors as I do surgeons who majored in biology. I know plenty of Wall Street investment banking analysts that were Art History majors. I know plenty of attorneys that majored in Chemistry. Many here are overstating the necessity of getting a degree in a certain field. How you perform, what you did on the edges, and the name on the diploma make a big difference. Of course if loan candidates were reviewed in a manner consistent with say getting a mortgage, all of these details would be factored in.

But back to the topic at hand. The issue with student loans is that they are unsustainable at their current level because like @ATN_Pilot stated there's no way they would be issued if an institution was reviewing the candidate based on normal risk criteria. Government coercion at its finest and no sane politician is going to tell voters that the practice needs to be curtailed.

But in all those fields of doctors and lawyers, the 4-yr is a basic entry requirement. Each of those career fields requires another 4 years in med school or law school. I can't speak for investment banking but I have a feeling that probably requires further schooling, eg, an MBA or something. So for these career fields, the 4-year degree doesn't matter as much.

But talk about jobs you can get with ONLY a 4-year bachelor degree, and the target gets narrowed very quickly, and liberal arts are just not going to cut it.