Logging Flight Time w/out a Takeoff?

nosehair said:
Completely different subject area. Flight time is inclusive in the "duty time" limitations set in 135/121 operations. There ate no such duty time limits in 91 ops, which is what flight instruction.is.
Please don't confuse the issue with airline operations.
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Flight time is flight time. The FAA counts taxi with the intention of flight as flight time for the purpose of calculating flight and duty limits in scheduled operations, so it stands to reason that it should be counted as flight time outside of those areas, also.

Honestly, I can't believe we're having a conversation where people are trying to justify logging less time.
 
nosehair said:
Completely different subject area. Flight time is inclusive in the "duty time" limitations set in 135/121 operations. There ate no such duty time limits in 91 ops, which is what flight instruction.is.
Please don't confuse the issue with airline operations.
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Don't confuse the fact that there are different Parts to the FAR with a lack of some connections between them. Part 91 commercial flying and paid flight instruction are both "other commercial flying" within the meaning of the 135/121 regs.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Don't confuse the fact that there are different Parts to the FAR with a lack of some connections between them. Part 91 commercial flying and paid flight instruction are both "other commercial flying" within the meaning of the 135/121 regs.
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Yes. As a commercial (121 and 135 pilot), I have often flown under part 91. I have never used different flight time logging rules when operating under part 91. As I pointed out earlier in addition to the rules governing pilot flight time limitations the times are used to track airframe time since most of the airplanes I operate under these rules did not have Hobbs meters. While ACARS automatically tracks this, in the days before ACARs or in airplanes without it or deferred ACARs we were and are expected to accurately track these times based upon "out" (brake release at the departure gate), and "in" (final setting of the brake at the arrival gate). Also as pointed out earlier I know of one crew who had their certificates revoked, not for under reporting the flight time in their log books but for under reporting flight time in an airplane logbook. As I'm sure you know the FAA takes a very, very dim view of falsifying logbooks, both personal and airframe logbooks.

Operating solely as a CFI I will admit that the chances are remote that under reporting flight time would cause certification action by the FAA. Yet why would one risk becoming a legal precedent?
 
How about don't worry about the .2 it took to get to the runway and cancel the flight, and move on with life.
 
Not only that, but why would you not log time that you're entitled to log? I've known people with quite a bit of total time who couldn't apply for a job because they were a fraction of an hour short on a key category of time. Log everything you're legally entitled to log. You never know when you might need it.
 
deadstick said:
Skip logging it and break a plane/person 7.9 hrs later, the FAA will get all-up in your life, to include your records for that day.
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I seriously doubt it. Log it in the airplanes books, for sure. Write up the discrepancy, hand it over to maintenance, and you're done. As for putting .2 in my logbook because I taxied out, then back in with the "intent to fly" but didn't, and now I'm going to get violated because I didn't take off? You guys are being paranoid.

This crap just ain't that hard.
 
mshunter said:
I seriously doubt it. Log it in the airplanes books, for sure. Write up the discrepancy, hand it over to maintenance, and you're done. As for putting .2 in my logbook because I taxied out, then back in with the "intent to fly" but didn't, and now I'm going to get violated because I didn't take off? You guys are being paranoid.

This crap just ain't that hard.
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I hate to break it to you, but POIs of 121 air carriers take this stuff very seriously. You shouldn't be so flippant about it.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I hate to break it to you, but POIs of 121 air carriers take this stuff very seriously. You shouldn't be so flippant about it.
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And on the 135 side, if your POI has a hard-on for your boss, just feels like it, is bored, or needs to show the FSDO mangager he's doing something, he can keep looking until he finds something.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I hate to break it to you, but POIs of 121 air carriers take this stuff very seriously. You shouldn't be so flippant about it.
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Eh, as far as the pilot is concerned, I am going only required to log currency. I know plenty of pilots that don't keep anything in their logbooks, other than currency flights.

While I suppose they could exceed duty limits, would be a tough thing to prove with no logbook entries.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
Eh, as far as the pilot is concerned, I am going only required to log currency.
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They don't care what you log, but they do care that you keep track of it in some way, because your flight and duty limits are a joint responsibility between you and the air carrier. You are liable if you bust flight and duty regs. How are you going to know if you're ignoring that 0.2 because you think it's not important?
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I hate to break it to you, but POIs of 121 air carriers take this stuff very seriously. You shouldn't be so flippant about it.
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They are worried about pencil whipping log books. They aren't worried about me not logging a return to gate. If I can prove that I was legal, I have nothing to worry about, and I have nothing to hide.
 
deadstick said:
While I suppose they could exceed duty limits, would be a tough thing to prove with no logbook entries.
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There is always the twin questions of "what are the rules?" and "what can I get away with?"

There's no requirement to log anything beyond flights to show qualification and currency in your logbook. And there's nothing to say the only records need to be your logbook. If there is an inquiry into possible duty time limitations in connection with an accident or incident investigation, the requirement is honesty in the answers. Present you logbook and a statement about the Part 91 ferry flight or paid flight instruction you didn't log there is probably no problem. OTOH, present that same logbook and answer "no" to the inspector's, "Any paid flights you did that were not logged?" you have a different issue.

Logging those flights isn't required; it's just one way of keeping a consistently reliable record.

What can you get away with because it would be tough to prove? Probably not much. Remember, we're not talking about some renegade inspector at the FSDO who likes to review logbooks for no reason. The question is going to come up in the course of an incident or accident investigation in which the question of exceeding duty time is raised. It would be pretty easy to get the evidence of that ferry or instructional flight if your records were questioned.
 
Blackhawk said:
Ummm... yes the FAA does tell you taxi time is flight time if it is done for the purposes of attaining flight.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2014/silverberg-silverberg, goldman & bikoff - (2014) legal interpretation.pdf
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That's all about 121.
part 91, the faa allows the hobby time, but doesn't require it.
If I choose to complete my run-up before I consider myself moving forward for the purpose of flight, no one in the faa is going to violate me on that interpretation.
Do you have such an example?
 
mshunter said:
They are worried about pencil whipping log books. They aren't worried about me not logging a return to gate. If I can prove that I was legal, I have nothing to worry about, and I have nothing to hide.
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How are you going to show that you're doing your job of keeping track of your flight and duty times if you aren't logging the proper time? And more importantly, why are you so hell bent on not logging time that you're entitled to log? It's just bizarre.
 
nosehair said:
That's all about 121.
part 91, the faa allows the hobby time, but doesn't require it.
If I choose to complete my run-up before I consider myself moving forward for the purpose of flight, no one in the faa is going to violate me on that interpretation.
Do you have such an example?
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1. The original question was from a CFI and logging time. This would not be part 91, but 61.195, CFI limitations.
2. As for falsifying air frame time, this would be covered by 43.12, not part 91.
3. Do I have examples of FAA Chief Counsel letters of interpretation? No, I guess no one has gotten around to asking the chief counsel if they can ignore FAR 1 and log flight time as they see fit.
4. As for people (pilots and mechanics), falsifying airframe logs, yes, there are numerous examples. They normally result in emergency revocation.
5. I don't know of any in the NTSB data base for falsifying airframe time, but that does not mean much as the only cases that make it that far are those where the airman appeals to the NTSB. I already mentioned one case where the airframe was operated under part 121 that where the airmen certificates were revoked, but the pilots in question did not appeal and moved on to other vocations.
6. FAA allows hobby time, but does not require it. But if it comes to their attention that you are not logging the time IAW FAR 1 and it affects part 43 or pilot duty limitations (again, this can be a part 61.195 limitation), they will most certainly take action against you. As Mark pointed out they will, in all likelihood, not go for a fishing expedition trying to find violations. If, however, it comes to their attention during the course of an investigation that something was falsified they will most certainly take action. With GPS memory this would not be very difficult to determine.

So basically we have the OP, a CFI asking if he can legally log taxi time. We have the FAR 1 definition of flight time and we have 61.195 which limits a CFI's flight time in a 24 hour period. Pretty cut and dry. Then we have "some dude on a website" saying don't worry about the FARs, just log what you want. Sorry, I'll go with the FARs over some dude on a website.
 
There still seems to be a little cross-over mis-connection among us. As a matter of personal choice, here's the way I break it down.

If I were not concerned with exceeding Part 121 or Part 135 duty time limitations or Part 61 flight time limitations for an instructor, I would not care at all whether I put some permitted but irrelevant-to-me flight time in my logbook.

If exceeding part 121, 135 or 61 CFI time limitations were important to me, I would at least log all my countable "commercial flying" time in my logbook, not because the FAA mandates it, but so I have a reliable record to point to. I might take the "don't care" tack if there were other regularly-kept records of the same thing but, as a rule, I prefer to maintain my own record than rely on others.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
How are you going to show that you're doing your job of keeping track of your flight and duty times if you aren't logging the proper time? And more importantly, why are you so hell bent on not logging time that you're entitled to log? It's just bizarre.
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Duty times aren't kept in my log book. It's on the scheduling software, and the trip pairing I print out. And I'm just not concerned with getting that extra 1-2 hours a year because of gate returns. In the end game, it's not that much. You might think I'm being ridiculous, but I think your are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

"So, Mr inspector, if you look here in my pairing, you can clearly see when I reported, how long we sat, here is the gate return, and at the end of the day, I was still legal."
 
mshunter said:
Duty times aren't kept in my log book. It's on the scheduling software, and the trip pairing I print out. And I'm just not concerned with getting that extra 1-2 hours a year because of gate returns. In the end game, it's not that much. You might think I'm being ridiculous, but I think your are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

"So, Mr inspector, if you look here in my pairing, you can clearly see when I reported, how long we sat, here is the gate return, and at the end of the day, I was still legal."
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So you're basically saying that you depend entirely upon the airline's scheduling software to determine whether you are legal or not? Definitely not the answer I would want to give if the fed was asking why I exceeded my flight/duty limits.
 
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