ATP requirement question??

badtransam97

badtransam97

Well-Known Member
Cant find a specific answer, so thought Id ask on here. I am wondering if one can obtain a multiengine ATP rating without holding a commercial multi? For example, say I hold Commercial SEL & Rotorcraft both with instrument privileges, and Private MEL with instrument privileges. I also meet the aeronautical experience listed in FAR 61.159 by counting mostly my rotor time. My question stems from FAR 61.153(d)(1) states that one must hold a commercial license with instrument rating.
So....I doesn't say anything about it needing to be a commercial MULTI engine, that I can find. Just trying to save myself a multi commercial checkride, if I can get the ATP multi without it.
 
You MUST have a commercial single before an ATP single, and MUST have a commercial multi before an ATP multi.

I know several people that have an ATP Multi but not a single engine commercial. They did their commercial multi as their initial commercial, and therefor can not get a single engine ATP. Personally, I have both commercials, but only a multi ATP.
 
I'm dont think you're correct tbstsnto... While not my case I know a few folk whose first multi engine check ride was an ATP. Someone will be along to correct me but to the best of me knowledge beyond meeting the hour requirements you ony need the written and an instrument rating to qualify for the ATP.
 
There are a couple former military tanker guys that I've met with just an ATP-MEL certificate. They took their logbooks to a testing site, passed the written then took the ride in a Dutchess.

They didn't have a commercial multi first, or even a commercial single for that matter.
 
Romulus said:
I'm dont think you're correct tbstsnto... While not my case I know a few folk whose first multi engine check ride was an ATP. Someone will be along to correct me but to the best of me knowledge beyond meeting the hour requirements you ony need the written and an instrument rating to qualify for the ATP.
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That used to be the case I think but now per 61.153(d)(1) you have to have a commercial pilot certificate with instrument rating.

A friend of mine got his ATP ASEL several years before his ATP AMEL but only because his knowledge test was close to expiration.
 
pilotmec said:
Single engine to single engine, multi to multi.
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Where in the FAR does it say that?

61.153 reads "commercial certificate with instrument rating" not "commercial certificate with instrument rating and the same category and class rating".

Same language is used in 61.123 (except the instrument rating part). Are you saying that one cannot get commercial MEL without doing private MEL first?
 
61.153(a)(1) refers to appropriate aeronautical experience requirements

Also 61.157
 
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pilotmec said:
61.153(a)(1) refers to appropriate aeronautical experience requirements

Also 61.157
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You mean 61.153(d)(1)?
(1) Holds a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating issued under this part;
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That's it. No mention of a specific class or category.

Compare to the language in 61.183(c) where class and category are explicitly required.
 
And do you mind quoting the paragraph from 61.159 where a commercial certificate in class and category is mentioned?
 
Call your local FSDO, tell them that you are a private multiengine pilot and want to take a multiengine ATP check ride. If they say you can do it, then mystery solved.
 
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The OP wasn't asking about private pilot. He's a commercial SEL with instrument rating, but only a private MEL. So yes the local FSDO will tell him he can take the ATP ride in a twin.
 
tbstanto said:
Call your local FSDO, tell them that you are a private pilot and want to take an ATP check ride. If they say you can do it, then mystery solved.
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Called 3 different ones yesterday..
1- said he didn't know, to call a DPE, they were more versed on that type of reg.
2- said no way, need a multi comm
3- said he couldn't see where it stated a multi comm was needed,
But thought it was. Couldn't quote a specific reg though.
I'm not trying to be complicated, but I also don't want to spend the $400 or so bucks to get a checkride for the multi comm if I don't need it to get the ATP multi
 
Here is my take on it,

§61.157 Flight proficiency.
(a) General. (1) The practical test for an airline transport pilot certificate is given for—
(i) An airplane category and single engine class rating.
(ii) An airplane category and multiengine class rating.

§61.159 Aeronautical experience: Airplane category rating.
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of this section, a person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:
(1) 500 hours of cross-country flight time.
(2) 100 hours of night flight time.
(3) 50 hours of flight time in the class of airplane for the rating sought. (Class: single engine; multiengine; land; water; gyroplane; helicopter; airship; and free balloon)

§61.153 Eligibility Requirements: General

(f) Meet the aeronautical experience requirements of this subpart that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought before applying for the practical test;

(g) Pass a knowledge test on the aeronautical knowledge areas of §61.155(c) of this part that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought;

(h) Pass the practical test on the areas of operation listed in §61.157(e) of this part that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought; and

(i) Comply with the sections of this subpart that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought.


FAA-S-8081-5F Chg. 1-7 (PTS)

Practical Test Prerequisites: Airline Transport Pilot Multiengine Class (14 CFR part 61, section 61.159)
3. Have the aeronautical experience prescribed in 14 CFR part 61, section 61.159, that applies to the aircraft category and class rating.

Practical Test Prerequisites: Airline Transport Pilot Single-Engine Class
2. Have the aeronautical experience prescribed in 14 CFR part 61, that applies to the airplane single-engine category and class rating.

This guidance can be found at fsims.faa.gov


FAA Order 8900.2
General Aviaton Airman Designee Handbook
FAA Order 8900.1, Volume 5, Chapter 2

Conduct an Airline Transport Pilot Certification, Including Additional Category/Class Ratings


Like I said, this is my take on it.
 
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badtransam97 said:
Called 3 different ones yesterday..
1- said he didn't know, to call a DPE, they were more versed on that type of reg.
2- said no way, need a multi comm
3- said he couldn't see where it stated a multi comm was needed,
But thought it was. Couldn't quote a specific reg though.
I'm not trying to be complicated, but I also don't want to spend the $400 or so bucks to get a checkride for the multi comm if I don't need it to get the ATP multi
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Unfortunately, many ASI's do not read guidance, the regulations, the PTS, Advisory Circulars etc.
 
pilotmec said:
Here is my take on it,

§61.157 Flight proficiency.
(a) General. (1) The practical test for an airline transport pilot certificate is given for—
(i) An airplane category and single engine class rating.
(ii) An airplane category and multiengine class rating.

§61.159 Aeronautical experience: Airplane category rating.
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of this section, a person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:
(1) 500 hours of cross-country flight time.
(2) 100 hours of night flight time.
(3) 50 hours of flight time in the class of airplane for the rating sought. (Class: single engine; multiengine; land; water; gyroplane; helicopter; airship; and free balloon)

FAA-S-8081-5F Chg. 1-7 (PTS)

Practical Test Prerequisites: Airline Transport Pilot Multiengine Class (14 CFR part 61, section 61.159)
3. Have the aeronautical experience prescribed in 14 CFR part 61, section 61.159, that applies to the aircraft category and class rating.

Practical Test Prerequisites: Airline Transport Pilot Single-Engine Class
2. Have the aeronautical experience prescribed in 14 CFR part 61, that applies to the airplane single-engine category and class rating.

This guidance can be found at fsims.faa.gov


FAA Order 8900.2
General Aviaton Airman Designee Handbook
FAA Order 8900.1, Volume 5, Chapter 2

Conduct an Airline Transport Pilot Certification, Including Additional Category/Class Ratings


Like I said, this is my take on it.
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I'm confused now on YOUR take. You've posted the regs but I'm not seeing that one would need a Com rating to get the ATP. You might have the hours/experience for both but not sure you need the certificate.
 
dustoff17 said:
I'm confused now on YOUR take. You've posted the regs but I'm not seeing that one would need a Com rating to get the ATP. You might have the hours/experience for both but not sure you need the certificate.
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Sorry, forgot to add (f)-(i)
 
Idk..way it LOOKS to me is that if you meet 61.159(a)(3) which I do, via private MEL, and I meet the other hour req's of 61.159 via counting rotorwing and CSEL, then I technically qualify...because 61.153(d)(1) just states commercial pilot cert with instrument rating, no mention of single, multi etc..
Like I said, not trying to argue or make things complicated, but if I don't have to pay a CMEL checkride fee then I'm not going to.
 
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