You guys win.

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On a side note: As someone who works in IT I can appreciate the time and money Doug puts into this website. It may seem like a simple web board but the internet is not free folks, I can guarantee he puts his own money into this site, and all to try and pay it forward for future pilots. This board is one of the few things that keeps me involved in aviation and I hope it doesn't go away.

If your only interest is being a jerk, go use Twitter.
 
mikecweb said:
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Essential Oils...? Where do I sign.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Give it up, @Seggy. Let the sanctimonious have their victory. When Emirates is selling tickets from JFK to LAX, then we'll see how much they value their "internet civility." :rolleyes:
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When I walked into Mike Rogers' office during the legislative affairs conference to #denyNAI, I'm pretty sure we didn't insult him to his face (nor his staffers) despite the fact they clearly had no interest in supporting any of our agenda. They didn't even take notes, and they forced us to explain everything to them in the hall rather than the conference room.

I don't think we'll win American wallets or votes by belittling people who disagree. I would have totally loved to tell the passenger who told us to "f off" to do the same, but my professional decorum and my personal upbringing won out and all I could say was "I'm sorry you feel that way sir."
 
SpiceWeasel said:
When I walked into Mike Rogers' office during the legislative affairs conference to #denyNAI, I'm pretty sure we didn't insult him to his face (nor his staffers) despite the fact they clearly had no interest in supporting any of our agenda. They didn't even take notes, and they forced us to explain everything to them in the hall rather than the conference room.

I don't think we'll win American wallets or votes by belittling people who disagree. I would have totally loved to tell the passenger who told us to "f off" to do the same, but my professional decorum and my personal upbringing won out and all I could say was "I'm sorry you feel that way sir."
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This isn't a congressman's office, nor are we dealing with customers. Analogy fail.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
This isn't a congressman's office, nor are we dealing with customers. Analogy fail.
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No, it's the same. But humor me, did you ever go into disciplinary meetings for pilots and belittle the (Assistant) Chief Pilots, Base Managers, Schedulers, etc.

You are belittling friends, followers, former constituents of yours, etc. That's not being honest, it completely misses the point of your side of the debate.

As far as Emirates or even NAI, I won't get worked up about for or against on a web forum because we don't need to sell most of these folks on it anyway. The people in charge are who we need to be talking to, and each MEC as well as National should be distributing the material to our inboxes in the form of Call to Actions. Non-ALPA pilots can't even participate in some of our lobbying as some of it requires a log in to send emails to congress.
 
@Seggy's point reminds me of something from many years ago. I got interested in politics at a young age, so throughout my teenage years, my father and I would watch the Sunday morning political shows together every week. Every few weeks, my mom would walk into the room while we were watching something like Meet the Press while someone like Pat Buchanan was yelling at someone like Bill Press, and my mother would say something like "how can you watch this garbage, they're just screaming at each other?" My father and I would look at her like she had three heads. In our minds, we're thinking "of course they're screaming at each other, because these are the most important issues affecting society, and they both feel that their ideas are the only ones to save us." To her, someone who had no interest in politics and preferred to simply let others in society deal with those problems, it was just "rude" how people in politics spoke to each other, and she just wanted everyone to get along and be nice. But to us, it would just be bizarre if people weren't worked up about these issues, and putting politeness ahead of truth would be a misplaced priority.

This has been @Seggy's point all along. We aren't talking about In 'N Out verses Five Guys, we're talking about issues that could result in tens of thousands of people losing their jobs. And you know what? Everyone involved in the conversation is a big boy and can take it if someone isn't "nice" to him.
 
Maybe we should just ban political debate here like it is on APC then? There's no need to scream at each other in Doug's living room. We aren't the politicians, and we won't change minds. All we can do is vote for the candidate that fits our aims the best. I haven't seen one that I like, yet, ever (come on ATHEIST candidate!!!).
 
SpiceWeasel said:
No, it's the same. But humor me, did you ever go into disciplinary meetings for pilots and belittle the (Assistant) Chief Pilots, Base Managers, Schedulers, etc.
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Rarely, but sometimes. Depending on who you're dealing with, that may be the most effective method. That was certainly the case when negotiating with one of our top executives at AirTran. He was old school Eastern, so he felt that it was best to have a knock-down, drag-out fight, and then after that was done and we got everything out of our systems, it was time to reach a deal. But if you didn't have that fight and just tried to sit there and be "nice," he would have no respect for you and nothing would get done. After the deal was reached, we would all go to dinner and have some drinks like we were old buddies, because the screaming and hollering (and yes, even outright personal insults) were just business. Adults can do that. Children who feel that everybody needs to be "nice" to each other all the time because that's what their kindergarten teacher taught them apparently can't.

As far as Emirates or even NAI, I won't get worked up about for or against on a web forum because we don't need to sell most of these folks on it anyway.
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I couldn't disagree with this more. We absolutely need to be selling everyone on this. Every single pilot needs to feel that this is life or death, because for their careers, it is. And that's why @Seggy feels so passionately about it.
 
SpiceWeasel said:
Maybe we should just ban political debate here like it is on APC then?
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You missed the point. It's not just about politics. That's just the issue I used as an example. Many, many issues are so important as to rightfully spawn that sort of emotion and passion. Trying to artificially suppress that in some misguided attempt to force "niceness" is neither necessary, nor advisable.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
You missed the point. It's not just about politics. That's just the issue I used as an example. Many, many issues are so important as to rightfully spawn that sort of emotion and passion. Trying to artificially suppress that in some misguided attempt to force "niceness" is neither necessary, nor advisable.
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No. Speaking down to people isn't a tactic its a lack of basic social skills.
 
We disagree, simple as that. I have to get off the office, so I leave you all to continue patting each other on the back about how "nice" you are to each other while Rome burns around you. Have fun.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Rarely, but sometimes. Depending on who you're dealing with, that may be the most effective method. That was certainly the case when negotiating with one of our top executives at AirTran. He was old school Eastern, so he felt that it was best to have a knock-down, drag-out fight, and then after that was done and we got everything out of our systems, it was time to reach a deal. But if you didn't have that fight and just tried to sit there and be "nice," he would have no respect for you and nothing would get done. After the deal was reached, we would all go to dinner and have some drinks like we were old buddies, because the screaming and hollering (and yes, even outright personal insults) were just business. Adults can do that. Children who feel that everybody needs to be "nice" to each other all the time because that's what their kindergarten teacher taught them apparently can't.
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Well we aren't negotiating with management here are we? I don't know how else to put it. I didn't think Pinnacle Pete accomplished anything when he called Wychor a "curse word" lying piece of work. It just made everyone, Wychor included, uncomfortable. Pinnacle Pete was worked up about the Union not getting us Date of Class pay raises like the other 2/3 of the company. Since he delivered so poorly, it was easy for Wychor to blame it on the Pinnacle MEC for not distributing the JCBA $10 million as the fix rather than our contract signing bonus. He didn't have a solution, he kicked the can to Erickson and co for screwing up. All because Pinnacle Pete couldn't talk to Wychor without being a jerk.

I couldn't disagree with this more. We absolutely need to be selling everyone on this. Every single pilot needs to feel that this is life or death, because for their careers, it is. And that's why @Seggy feels so passionately about it.
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Emirates isn't going to kill 91 corporate or 135 charter... So I would say that those whose goal is to do those jobs wouldn't care.
 
He knows the government will step in when the time comes, the airlines are too important to the economy. Just ignore him, people like him just want to be told they're right.
 
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