KCM

KCM access is an interesting (indeed, a pretty dumb) hill to fight upon considering all the other, uh, "things" happening in the industry, particularly at the regional level. Hopefully, nobody noticed the emperor is naked.

I mean, on the list of things I would vent my spleen over were I an ALPA pilot (or even just an airline pilot regardless of my representation or lack of), letting SkyWest pilots use KCM because "we don't pay for it" (itself a false claim previously debunked) would not even be on the first page. I think I would worry about the whipsaw, Emirates, and just about anything safety related before I would even consider fighting on this hill. The words "petulant poo-flinging" come to mind, and you certainly won't make anyone I work with vote yes through this viewpoint. Which, uh, which might be a better effort to focus on. Big tent, right?

Stand for something better.
 
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Autothrust Blue said:
KCM access is an interesting (indeed, a pretty dumb) hill to fight upon considering all the other, uh, "things" happening in the industry, particularly at the regional level. Hopefully, nobody noticed the emperor is naked.

I mean, on the list of things I would vent my spleen over were I an ALPA pilot (or even just an airline pilot regardless of my representation or lack of), letting SkyWest pilots use KCM because "we don't pay for it" (itself a false claim previously debunked) would not even be on the first page. I think I would worry about the whipsaw, Emirates, and just about anything safety related before I would even consider fighting on this hill. The words "petulant poo-flinging" come to mind, and you certainly won't make anyone I work with vote yes through this viewpoint. Which, uh, which might be a better effort to focus on. Big tent, right?

Stand for something better.
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Couple of things...

First off, the debunking of whether or not non ALPA groups pay for the service never happened. The goal posts were moved and the humble brag of service fees for use of the database was made. Sure, you pay a monthly fee to access it but then again, so does everybody. The point under discussion was (originally) the start up costs associated with the program, both in financial and negotiating capital terms. On those two accounts you paid absolutely nothing.

I agree there are much bigger hills to fight over but every time something like this happens, the non ALPA groups are again reminded that they have no reason to join the union because they will get many of the negotiated benefits anyway, whether it be QOL things like KCM, payrates (ya'll can thank ALPA for the rates the company is giving you) or safety programs and technology (think: LOSA and the new runway hold short marking system). You remember the outrage, even on this forum, from Skywest, Republic and GoJet pilots over not being invited to United's meet and greets a few months ago? That's the taste of exclusivity that union dollars should be buying and they aren't right now. And because of that places like your current shop have again and again turned down any chance at representation because they know they can save their 2% and let other places do the heavy lifting and yet still enjoy the benefits of it.
 
Saying only ALPA members should be able to use KCM is like saying only blood relatives of the Wright Brothers should be allowed to fly airplanes.
 
BobDDuck said:
I agree there are much bigger hills to fight over but every time something like this happens, the non ALPA groups are again reminded that they have no reason to join the union because they will get many of the negotiated benefits anyway, whether it be QOL things like KCM, payrates (ya'll can thank ALPA for the rates the company is giving you) or safety programs and technology (think: LOSA and the new runway hold short marking system). You remember the outrage, even on this forum, from Skywest, Republic and GoJet pilots over not being invited to United's meet and greets a few months ago? That's the taste of exclusivity that union dollars should be buying and they aren't right now. And because of that places like your current shop have again and again turned down any chance at representation because they know they can save their 2% and let other places do the heavy lifting and yet still enjoy the benefits of it.
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There was some additional drama, with respect to the job fairs, and we probably deserved it. Well, I didn't (you've probably already figured out that I'm in agreement with you on a lot of points), but I'm sure you're familiar with what happened.
 
Derg said:
Ass, cash or grass. :)
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Well none of us, ALPA or otherwise, contributed financially to the development and implementation of the airplane, all of us are able to use them however because somebody purchased it for us to use (ie. KCM user fee). I am thankful that KCM exists just like I am thankful that airplanes exist. Just my opinion
 
Jgreen318 said:
Well none of us, ALPA or otherwise, contributed financially to the development and implementation of the airplane, all of us are able to use them however because somebody purchased it for us to use (ie. KCM user fee). I am thankful that KCM exists just like I am thankful that airplanes exist. Just my opinion
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Quite the extrapolation but it's all good.

(See, I can be kind and nurturing despite popular opinion)
 
Derg said:
Quite the extrapolation but it's all good.

(See, I can be kind and nurturing despite popular opinion)
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It's a security program. I'm pretty sure that all AOSSPs for 121 operations are created to meet the same standard, so saying that Brand X employees, because they are e.g. Teamsters (or non-represented for that matter) can't use the program doesn't hold any water at all from a risk standpoint. If that's the case, then, well, folks remember these, right?
blue-high-risk-015x.jpg
 
BobDDuck said:
Couple of things...

First off, the debunking of whether or not non ALPA groups pay for the service never happened. The goal posts were moved and the humble brag of service fees for use of the database was made. Sure, you pay a monthly fee to access it but then again, so does everybody. The point under discussion was (originally) the start up costs associated with the program, both in financial and negotiating capital terms. On those two accounts you paid absolutely nothing.

I agree there are much bigger hills to fight over but every time something like this happens, the non ALPA groups are again reminded that they have no reason to join the union because they will get many of the negotiated benefits anyway, whether it be QOL things like KCM, payrates (ya'll can thank ALPA for the rates the company is giving you) or safety programs and technology (think: LOSA and the new runway hold short marking system). You remember the outrage, even on this forum, from Skywest, Republic and GoJet pilots over not being invited to United's meet and greets a few months ago? That's the taste of exclusivity that union dollars should be buying and they aren't right now. And because of that places like your current shop have again and again turned down any chance at representation because they know they can save their 2% and let other places do the heavy lifting and yet still enjoy the benefits of it.
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I've got ZERO problem with ALPA only hiring fairs, seminars, etc. But things for the public use, like TSA security checkpoints, roads, runways, runway hold short markings, etc., those things are in the category of "for the greater good." There are plenty of things that exist for the public good that were started at the expense of a private group.

Since all users pay a fee, it's a level playing field.

If ALPA is concerned about people not seeing the value in joining the union, they should make joining more appealing. Have more exclusive career fairs. Negotiate exclusive hiring percentages at majors. If 90% of legacy hires HAD to be ALPA members that might change things.

ALPA does a lot of great things, particularly with safety and lobbying. But otherwise they have an image problem, particularly at the regional level. Some of that image problem is undeserved, sure, but I don't see much going on to reverse it other than calling others freeloaders and various other colorful adjectives.
 
Well my beef is really, ultimately, with the work environment at a mostly non-union carrier.

The stews have had opportunity to get onboard the Labor Express for decades, but won't because they have a lot of 'me too' stuff in order to keep them happy.

So generally, it's (crew shuttle complaint) followed by "Tell your union (whatever)" when they've ridden the coat tails of any contractual improvement we earned.

At some point, I want my 1.whatever% to be solely spent on the interests of the people paying for it because many of those that directly benefit from my dues dollars are the very first to scream "Big labor! EWWW! DUES! UNIONS SUCK!" at the first opportunity.
 
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Derg said:
Well my beef is really, ultimately, with the work environment at a mostly non-union carrier.

The stews have had opportunity to get onboard the Labor Express for decades, but won't because they have a lot of 'me too' stuff in order to keep them happy.

So generally, it's (crew shuttle complaint) followed by "Tell your union (whatever)" when they've ridden the coat tails of any contractual improvement we earned.

At some point, I want my 1.whatever% to be solely spent on the interests of the people paying for it because many of those that directly benefit from my dues dollars are the very first to scream "Big labor! EWWW! DUES! UNIONS SUCK!" at the first opportunity.
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I see your point there. But KCM (IMO) is different because it's a public thing.

I'm no huge fan of unions in general, but the level of complaining about dues going on at my carrier is really bugging me. It was voted in. (I voted yes.) We are ALPA now, so shut up, and pay your dues. It's really amazing the lengths that people will go to avoid the dues.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
I see your point there. But KCM (IMO) is different because it's a public thing. I'm no huge fan of unions in general, but the level of complaining about dues going on at my carrier is really bugging me. It was voted in. (I voted yes.) We are ALPA now, so shut up, and pay your dues. It's really amazing the lengths that people will go to avoid the dues.
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How long do you have to wait to start volunteering?
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
I submitted my "interest" to be on the Safety Committee months ago. Jim said once the committee chair is chosen we should hear something.
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Looks like you guys are making good headway with a policy manual and several committee chairs recently appointed. I know it takes a lot longer than most would like but I think your MEC is quite good and pragmatic. It will be interesting to see how it all turns out for you guys. Stay positive and thank you for volunteering.
 
I LOL'd at my rejection email. But hopefully they will consider me for non-chair positions.

"Impressed with my commitment and qualifications." Ha.
 
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