Seggy on Emirates!

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Here is the problem, it is you who have been "sold the bridge" and you have yet to figure it out.

What do I mean? Very likely you grew up in a predominantly white suburban middle class neighborhood in the USA. In that neighborhood and in the majority of similar neighborhoods in North America you learned that being "fair" and "working hard" would help you to be successful in life. Most of the people you and your parents dealt with were honest and even helpful. You learned that honestly, integrity, and loyalty were good character traits that would benefit you in life.

You watched the news and saw executives of big U.S. corporations get into legal trouble for using bribery to secure a contract in a foreign country. You saw justice in the courts of the United States.

That actually worked in North America for most of the 50s, 60s, 70s, and even a little into the 80s. Why? Because the world was not anywhere near the global marketplace it is today. Most companies dealt domestically or with partners in Western Europe, where similar values were still the norm. They could compete in this environment.

The world has changed dramatically in the last 20-30 years. It is now a very global marketplace. Huge economies have emerged in India, China, Brazil, Eastern Europe, Africa. South America, and the rest of Asia. The majority of the people in those countries do not subscribe to the same values that you do. They cheat, lie, steal, bribe, and even kill to get to the top or to make a dollar. Those values go to their large companies and their governments as well.

So how do you compete against that? Hold the high ground with your honestly, integrity, and quest for fairness? I wish,.......................really I do. But, I've been out in that world and I've seen how it works. Neither you, me, the U.S. government, ALPA, or anyone else is going to change the way the world works in the short term.

If U.S. companies want to be successful in this new global marketplace they have to let go of these ideals of competition and how business worked in the past. They have to adapt to the reality of who they are competing with and how those people/companies think. They have to find innovative solutions to combat their foreign competitors.

You wrote this:

"A portion of Emirates' fleet is purchased with subsidies from Export Credit agencies (like the U.S. Export-Import Bank), reducing the cost of the aircraft to well below market value. U.S. airlines aren't eligible for this kind of financing, so these taxpayer-backed subsidies translate to a large market advantage over us."


There is so much wrong in those two sentences and it just drives home my point. As well a lot of exaggeration and mis-direction in those two sentences. A portion of Emirates fleet is actually around 10% of the fleet. Hardly enough to make a substantial competitive difference. You say this is tax-payer backed subsidies. The Ex-Im bank makes a profit, how is that a subsidy?

You say these "subsidies" reduce the cost of the aircraft to well below market value. How do you know this for a fact. When Delta, American, or UAL make a 100 aircraft order do they get discounts? When they buy Airbus aircraft do they get help from Airbus financing them? Indeed, is the list price of an Airbus aircraft not lower because of European subsidies in the first place?

Would you rather see Boeing go out of business entirely or would you like them to be able to fight back a little in getting aircraft orders from foreign airlines? When Boeing aircraft are sold does that not add to the U.S. economy? Does that not add jobs, many high paying union jobs? Do those happily employed Americans not travel on U.S. airlines for vacation and business? Does that not help U.S. carriers increase their revenue.

To think that Airbus is not out there actively bribing customers, and that the European governments that subsidize them are not fully aware and encouraging of those actions is naïve at best. Add in Embraer, Bombardier, Mitsubishi, Comac, Sukhoi, and ATR and it's probably even worse. Boeing only has the quality of their airplanes and the help they can get a customer in financing those airplanes as a weapon to level the playing field a little ( I used one of your favorite phrases :) ). You would handicap them to the detriment of their U.S. employees, suppliers, and the U.S. economy? They are fighting the unfair world legally and with the help of the U.S. government and you would take that away from them.



Typhoonpilot

Did you not read the article? Only DAL is cutting capacity while others, especially foreign competitors are increasing capacity. That is known as "giving up market share". Not a real good long term strategy. Short term it's great because you can show profitability and high seat factors. Typical stupid short sighted U.S. management thinking ( not referring to you, just the strategy ).



Clearly you do not understand Emirates business practices and therefore should probably not comment. What bottomless hole does Emirates pull their money from? They received a loan of $10 million to start the airline in 1985. They have not received any money since. They have been consistently profitable for decades and pay a dividend to their majority shareholder ( the government of Dubai ). You may make the above comment about Qatar and Etihad and it would be true, but not Emirates.



No argument on the unfavorable business and tax environment that U.S. carriers operate under. Why don't ALPA and U.S. airline employees go after those issues instead of NAI and Ex-Im financing?

Emirates is an incredibly well run airline on the commercial side. The managers know how to maximize passenger and freight revenue. They know how to start routes and attract customers so that they become profitable almost immediately. They know how to get their brand out in the public realm so that customers choose them even though their prices are often higher than their competitors.

If you'd stop for a moment and rationally evaluate the company and what I have said here and on other threads then perhaps it is you who will be able to get your head out of the sand.

Typhoonpilot

100% dead on accurate! Very well stated, sir!

My uncle was a PFE on the A300 working for PIA when in ~ '85 he was TDY to Dubai for the initial Emirates flying. You probably know this already, the '85 launching aircraft for Emirates was PIA. A portion of that $10 million was paid for this PIA service.
 
Oh yeah, I agree with you entirely. He's never helped anybody in this industry, he's ugly, he's stupid, he's attended sub-par academic institutions, works for a terrible employer, and worst of all, he smells terrible.

Chewy.jpg

TP didn't say any of those things, only you did. TP simply stated that the article is too simplistic, misses the mark, and is just an emotional argument.

Now you don't anymore but for ~6 years you worked for an employer that was 100% siphoning mainline flying from United Airlines with many routes that used to be done by the 737s at Continental/United. Outsourced regional airlines and the biggest threat to mainline pilot careers which is why that scope section is so important. One can't write an article like that on Emirates and just ignore that ~50% of United's domestic flying is outsourced to pilots who make less than half what United mainline pays. Why does that go unsaid? Just because the same union represents them it makes it "ok"?
 
Actually the comments seem to be spot on, especially pointing out that Emirates is actually responsible for thousands of jobs in the US. Emirates isn't receiving taxpayer subsidies, Boeing is.

I would say that the comments are spot on given that the US carriers service is objectively some of the worst in the world. Economics, price points and the 80 dollar ticket to Tampa aside, something is going to have to give or they will be overrun. You can't treat people the way United does and expect them to buy seats on your airline when given another choice. As an express pilot making pennies on the dollar to mainline pilots, even I feel embarrassed about the product that is offered. I don't have the answers, I realize it's an unfair playing field, but that doesn't excuse the level of service.
 
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Here is the problem, it is you who have been "sold the bridge" and you have yet to figure it out.

For you to say that is hysterical considering you are accepting of the fact that some cultures aren't playing fair. I haven't been sold a bridge like you. I have been engaging in an opportunity to try to educate and lobby people, some in power here in the United States for what I believe in.

That is this unfair foreign air carrier competition needs to be stopped.

What do I mean? Very likely you grew up in a predominantly white suburban middle class neighborhood in the USA. In that neighborhood and in the majority of similar neighborhoods in North America you learned that being "fair" and "working hard" would help you to be successful in life. Most of the people you and your parents dealt with were honest and even helpful. You learned that honestly, integrity, and loyalty were good character traits that would benefit you in life.

You watched the news and saw executives of big U.S. corporations get into legal trouble for using bribery to secure a contract in a foreign country. You saw justice in the courts of the United States.

That actually worked in North America for most of the 50s, 60s, 70s, and even a little into the 80s. Why? Because the world was not anywhere near the global marketplace it is today. Most companies dealt domestically or with partners in Western Europe, where similar values were still the norm. They could compete in this environment.

The world has changed dramatically in the last 20-30 years. It is now a very global marketplace. Huge economies have emerged in India, China, Brazil, Eastern Europe, Africa. South America, and the rest of Asia. The majority of the people in those countries do not subscribe to the same values that you do. They cheat, lie, steal, bribe, and even kill to get to the top or to make a dollar. Those values go to their large companies and their governments as well.

I have a news flash for you. I knew ALL of this LONG ago.

So how do you compete against that? Hold the high ground with your honestly, integrity, and quest for fairness? I wish,.......................really I do. But, I've been out in that world and I've seen how it works. Neither you, me, the U.S. government, ALPA, or anyone else is going to change the way the world works in the short term.

If U.S. companies want to be successful in this new global marketplace they have to let go of these ideals of competition and how business worked in the past. They have to adapt to the reality of who they are competing with and how those people/companies think. They have to find innovative solutions to combat their foreign competitors.

Guess what, THEY (Labor and Corporations) ARE finding innovative solutions to fight this foreign competition. The A4A is working with labor to fight these competitors. When the Bjorn Kjos spoke at the Washington AeroClub a few weeks ago you had union leaders sitting at the same tables with their respective CEOs, in unity, against what he was talking about. This is just scratching the surface of the cooperation being seen recently between A4A and labor to fight these threats. A perfect example is to have the NAI application still not approved (the DOT usually approves Foreign Air Carrier Applications in weeks, not over a year) shows that ALPA and the A4A had their ducks in a row to combat this scheme. Labor and industry isn't just being reactive. We are being proactive.

The bottom line is the solution you preached to combat the foreign competition is happening here in the States.

There is so much wrong in those two sentences and it just drives home my point. As well a lot of exaggeration and mis-direction in those two sentences. A portion of Emirates fleet is actually around 10% of the fleet. Hardly enough to make a substantial competitive difference. You say this is tax-payer backed subsidies. The Ex-Im bank makes a profit, how is that a subsidy?

You say these "subsidies" reduce the cost of the aircraft to well below market value. How do you know this for a fact. When Delta, American, or UAL make a 100 aircraft order do they get discounts? When they buy Airbus aircraft do they get help from Airbus financing them? Indeed, is the list price of an Airbus aircraft not lower because of European subsidies in the first place?

Would you rather see Boeing go out of business entirely or would you like them to be able to fight back a little in getting aircraft orders from foreign airlines? When Boeing aircraft are sold does that not add to the U.S. economy? Does that not add jobs, many high paying union jobs? Do those happily employed Americans not travel on U.S. airlines for vacation and business? Does that not help U.S. carriers increase their revenue.

To think that Airbus is not out there actively bribing customers, and that the European governments that subsidize them are not fully aware and encouraging of those actions is naïve at best. Add in Embraer, Bombardier, Mitsubishi, Comac, Sukhoi, and ATR and it's probably even worse. Boeing only has the quality of their airplanes and the help they can get a customer in financing those airplanes as a weapon to level the playing field a little ( I used one of your favorite phrases :) ). You would handicap them to the detriment of their U.S. employees, suppliers, and the U.S. economy? They are fighting the unfair world legally and with the help of the U.S. government and you would take that away from them.



Typhoonpilot

U.S. Airlines can't get these interest free loans the EX-IM Bank are handing out to foreign carriers.

Also, even if you take the Ex-Im Bank out of it, are you REALLY saying Boeing plays a completely clean game to level the playing field for decades? Look at their behavior with the USAF Tanker contract.

I have a great deal on that bridge.
 
TP didn't say any of those things, only you did. TP simply stated that the article is too simplistic, misses the mark, and is just an emotional argument.

Now you don't anymore but for ~6 years you worked for an employer that was 100% siphoning mainline flying from United Airlines with many routes that used to be done by the 737s at Continental/United. Outsourced regional airlines and the biggest threat to mainline pilot careers which is why that scope section is so important. One can't write an article like that on Emirates and just ignore that ~50% of United's domestic flying is outsourced to pilots who make less than half what United mainline pays. Why does that go unsaid? Just because the same union represents them it makes it "ok"?

You are being so obtuse.

You are looking at a past threat thinking it is still a big deal. It is obvious you haven't read the scope language of the United or Delta contract, yet you think we should focus on that. You lack the ability to see the future threat. You only talk about RJs as a threat but agree with everything @typhoonpilot says even though he would probably agree the RJ threat is nothing compared to the foreign carrier threat here in the United States. You are making a connection with what he is saying because he disagrees with me.

The biggest threat to mainline pilot careers and all pilots here in the United States are foreign entities. Middle East Carriers, NAI, etc. ARE a much bigger threat than a 50 or even 76 seat RJ flying between MSP-BUF have been or will ever be. The domestic market is saturated here in the United States. We, as United States airline pilots, need to protect our foreign interests.
 
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That is this unfair foreign air carrier competition needs to be stopped.


Read this three times then think about it for more than a few seconds before responding.

Those foreign carriers you are trying to stop can make the same arguments against all of the U.S. carriers in their country. They would see government bailouts post 9-11 and repeated bankruptcy restructuring as making them have to compete against "unfair foreign competition".

This mythical "level playing field" that ALPA keeps talking about is never going to happen. As stated, the world is not fair. Just deal with it. You can spend your whole life railing against the inequity of things. It will always be there, always something that just isn't fair. If you keep dwelling on it you'll have a pretty miserable life. If you run a company and dwell on it, that company will likely go out of business.

Certainly make proposals and fight for change that will help your industry and your employer. You talk about Ex-Im financing as being unfair to U.S. airlines. That is completely missing the point. It is good for America and good for American manufacturers. Ergo it is good for American workers. Instead of fighting it, argue for better financing ( even, taxpayer subsidized ;) ) to U.S. airlines if they buy Boeing aircraft. That would be a win-win. Good for U.S. airlines and good for U.S. manufacturing. Instead you and your ALPA buddies want to hurt American companies and American workers other than airline workers.



Typhoonpilot
 
You are being so obtuse.

You are looking at a past threat thinking it is still a big deal. It is obvious you haven't read the scope language of the United or Delta contract, yet you think we should focus on that. You lack the ability to see the future threat. You only talk about RJs as a threat but agree with everything @typhoonpilot says even though he would probably agree the RJ threat is nothing compared to the foreign carrier threat here in the United States. You are making a connection with what he is saying because he disagrees with me.

The biggest threat to mainline pilot careers and all pilots here in the United States are foreign entities. Middle East Carriers, NAI, etc. ARE a much bigger threat than a 50 or even 76 seat RJ flying between MSP-BUF have been or will ever be. The domestic market is saturated here in the United States. We, as United States airline pilots, need to protect our foreign interests.

Past threat? That's why Mesa just got new E170s for United?

Middle East carriers and foreign entities aren't a threat like your management group is. Or like Delta's JV with Virgin Atlantic. VS takes over a Delta flight from LAX and new into ATL. Your management will decide what their market share is and what JVs to pursue. That is the bigger threat. Not because you got emotional over seeing one Emirates A380 land at IAH...
 
Explain to me the Delta and United scope sections. Then let's talk.

Limiting the number of 50 and 70/76/90 seaters allowed in regional carriers. And for JVs? Why don't you tell me. The threat is and always has been your management and their decisions in regards to market share and JVs. Emirates flying one daily A380 from DXB to/from IAH does not affect you.
 
Missing quite a bit there.




Not worth my time.

Instead you took the time to write an article that was basically baseless. The point remains that an Emirates A380 from Dubai to Houston does not affect you. Emirates offers the one stop connection to many countries/cities in Africa, the Middle East, and Asia that American carriers refuse to touch. Good for Emirates to offer that.
 
I vacationed from JFK-MXP this year and bought myself + family confirmed tickets. Delta and AA both offered the 767, Emirates a 777-300ER, and Alitalia an A330. Same price for all 4. Guess who I picked? The one with the best customer service.
 
I vacationed from JFK-MXP this year and bought myself + family confirmed tickets. Delta and AA both offered the 767, Emirates a 777-300ER, and Alitalia an A330. Same price for all 4. Guess who I picked? The one with the best customer service.

Aren't you special?

BTW, have you seen the status of that Emirates route?
 
Aren't you special?

BTW, have you seen the status of that Emirates route?

Why does it anger you that people with choices, choose better service, as mentioned the tickets were literally at the same price point. American carriers are really going to have to figure this out, the playing field will never be level, ever, and treating your passengers like the crap on the bottom of your shoe is surely not how you fix this.
 
Why does it anger you that people with choices, choose better service, as mentioned the tickets were literally at the same price point. American carriers are really going to have to figure this out, the playing field will never be level, ever, and treating your passengers like the crap on the bottom of your shoe is surely not how you fix this.
Delta doesn't treat pax like crap anymore. Alaska doesn't, swa doesn't, American Is trying again, and I would guess United is trying too.
 
Delta doesn't treat pax like crap anymore. Alaska doesn't, swa doesn't, American Is trying again, and I would guess United is trying too.

The fact that you had to add "anymore" and "trying again" as well as "I would guess" is kinda the problem. For anyone that has been a frequent traveler of any sort in the last two decades the aftertaste in their mouth is so bad at this point that US airlines have TON of ground to makeup. Too little too late comes to mind. As an American pilot with zero desire to move overseas for work I sincerely hope I am wrong. Time will tell.
 
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