Seggy on Emirates!

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The fact that you had to add "anymore" and "trying again" as well as "I would guess" is kinda the problem. For anyone that has been a frequent traveler of any sort in the last two decades the aftertaste in their mouth is so bad at this point that US airlines have TON of ground to makeup. Too little too late comes to mind. As an American pilot with zero desire to move overseas for work I sincerely hope I am wrong. Time will tell.
You can only sell what people will pay for, but some companies went after the "I don't care about service just get me there cheap!" too hard because it was a giant and untapped market. Now that everyone has seen how far that market takes you, and we know who the winners are, airlines are getting back down to business.
 
@A Life Aloft and @HVYMETALDRVR how can you like @typhoonpilot post?

That news is horrible for US Airlines.


Maybe they "liked" the post because they were "happy" you were proven wrong or whatever?

I admitted in another post that I MAY be naive on a subject. I'll admit here that I AM naive. Why/how is this bad for US airlines? I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm certainly not all "rah rah" gung-ho about Emirates. Don't US airlines do this as well? Doesn't Delta operate flights out of Amsterdam to other European countries? United and Delta both operate flights out of Japan, China, etc to other Asian countries?

(I'm not looking for you to put me in my place. Just to answer a question for a dummy)
 
I am not the most brightest person on this website so go easy on me and my honest question. I find it hard to believe that all 10,000 passengers (or however many an A380 carries) have a final destination of IAH. I have to assume a good chunk of them will connect on a domestic airline, likely United in this case, to a different city. Doesn't that actually help the cause?
 
Other airlines just can't compete with the likes of EK when it comes to service and make profits like them. It's not a level playing field. If they receive heavy government subsidies, then they can offer much better service for a much lower price. Good for the passenger, but not fair to other airlines.

Here's an article from a few years ago when they had their spat with Canada. Similar issues were discussed.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...n-uae-airline-feud-tories-say/article1461836/
 
Maybe they "liked" the post because they were "happy" you were proven wrong or whatever?

I admitted in another post that I MAY be naive on a subject. I'll admit here that I AM naive. Why/how is this bad for US airlines? I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm certainly not all "rah rah" gung-ho about Emirates. Don't US airlines do this as well? Doesn't Delta operate flights out of Amsterdam to other European countries? United and Delta both operate flights out of Japan, China, etc to other Asian countries?

(I'm not looking for you to put me in my place. Just to answer a question for a dummy)
My guess, from previous readings, is it'll go something like this.

Anti - Emirates crowd: They are a national airline, are backed by the oil rich government of the UAE, and US enterprise/companies can't compete with that sort of bottomless cash.

Pro - Emirates crowd: US airlines get plenty of tax subsides and that means they are backed by their nation too. Companies have to learn to compete with this real airlines presence.

Objectively: The WTO has settled cases similar to these with Boeing v Airbus. In final challenge # 2, the arbitrator and it's staff found that while boeing and airbus both receive government help, the european conglomerate receives wildly more money. Airbus had to find a way to back off the tax giveaway teat or they aren't competing in a free market. That is only the beginning and probably the smallest problem. International trade is vast and complex, and there's no agreed way on what subsidies mean what. Airbus get's a risk free loan to explore the A380 market. Boeing argues that is worse than giving equal money later because Airbus can innovate without risk (ie. Boeing 747 program launched by Boeing-history lesson time but not now). Airbus argues that Boeing disapproves of certain kinds of subsides, jumpstart programs (what we would call an R+D grant), but not feeding at the teat of yearly tax breaks. Airbus and any European company is going to get slammed each year they make a big profit by the gubbermint. So what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

UAE does admit subsides are given to Emirates, but critics complain there isn't enough transparency. How then, can we properly weigh their business against values and requirements set forth by the WTO? UAE says, "sick a D 'Murica," or something like that and burns a flag because ... arab. I'm just being over the top, Emirates has an established business model that they are going to press into areas where they can compete, that's business. Quite frankly they could smash things wide open in America.

Historically? This is an old song and dance. Both sides will scoff and bluster and burn money to the God's of Lobbyist. In the end reason will be seen, and Emirates will have to play by the rules in America like everyone else (looking at Virgin now).
 
Maybe they "liked" the post because they were "happy" you were proven wrong or whatever?

I admitted in another post that I MAY be naive on a subject. I'll admit here that I AM naive. Why/how is this bad for US airlines? I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm certainly not all "rah rah" gung-ho about Emirates. Don't US airlines do this as well? Doesn't Delta operate flights out of Amsterdam to other European countries? United and Delta both operate flights out of Japan, China, etc to other Asian countries?

(I'm not looking for you to put me in my place. Just to answer a question for a dummy)


United and Delta operate a hub out of Narita that is a leftover from Japanese war reparations. With the advent of newer more efficient aircraft and more market demand for non-stop flying Delta is drawing theirs down somewhat. I think that is a strategic mistake, but that is another discussion.

More importantly there are FedEx, UPS, and Atlas that have extensive networks in non-U.S. flying. As companies they are very concerned with ALPA's actions in regards to protectionism since the repercussions could seriously hinder their global networks. Both FedEx and Atlas filed briefs in favor of granting NAI's certificate application with the DOT, as an example.

In regards to Emirates route from Milan to JFK being bad for U.S. airlines, it is extra competition. Something that scares U.S. airline management and ALPA pilots. They are afraid of the precedent and that it could ( operative word is could ) lead to more such flying by the Middle East three or other non-European carriers. This could erode yields on trans-Atlantic route for U.S. carriers.


TP
 
And yes, "life isn't fair." But that doesn't mean we should just sit and do nothing.

Airlines in the USA may receive some forms of subsidies or government-backing, but I can't possibly imagine it's to the same extent that EK does.
 
Other airlines just can't compete with the likes of EK when it comes to service and make profits like them. It's not a level playing field. If they receive heavy government subsidies, then they can offer much better service for a much lower price. Good for the passenger, but not fair to other airlines.

Here's an article from a few years ago when they had their spat with Canada. Similar issues were discussed.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/jobs-at-risk-in-uae-airline-feud-tories-say/article1461836/


Does Emirates receive heavy government subsidies? That always seems to be the claim, but nothing specific is given. They'll be the "free fuel" posters of course to which I would always counter why then did I tanker fuel out of Kuwait and even London Heathrow, at times, to Dubai?

The U.S. carriers are making far better profits and have better margins than EK. Qatar and Etihad barely turn a profit, but those airlines are government subsidized. One would be better off arguing against them than Emirates because the claims actually have some merit.

And while that is going on Turkish quietly grows at a phenomenal rate and U.S. carriers are giving up market share to the Chinese.

The problem in all of this, as I see it, is that U.S. carriers have poor understanding of the global travel trends and a piss poor long term strategy to compete in the growing global marketplace.

There is an abundance of opportunity out there. FedEx has tapped into it. UPS has tapped into it. The major U.S. carriers could too. That is what Emirates is doing and doing quite successfully. It would be nice to see the U.S. carriers do it as well. Not easy, granted, but if they'd stop all the short sighted protectionist thinking and take a few risks the long term rewards would be good for all concerned.


Typhoonpilot
 
And yes, "life isn't fair." But that doesn't mean we should just sit and do nothing.

Airlines in the USA may receive some forms of subsidies or government-backing, but I can't possibly imagine it's to the same extent that EK does.

Really, come on. You have to say something specific to back up your claim.


TP
 
I admitted in another post that I MAY be naive on a subject. I'll admit here that I AM naive. Why/how is this bad for US airlines? I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm certainly not all "rah rah" gung-ho about Emirates. Don't US airlines do this as well? Doesn't Delta operate flights out of Amsterdam to other European countries? United and Delta both operate flights out of Japan, China, etc to other Asian countries?

(I'm not looking for you to put me in my place. Just to answer a question for a dummy)

Simply put, the United States doesn't subsidize their airlines like Emirates is subsidized. Furthermore, there are numerous reports on the business practices being used by Emirates when they don't get their way (Google: Canada Military Emirates). The pro-Emirates crowd is basically saying 'tough' US Carriers should find innovative ways to compete. Well, we are.
 
@B767 I'd just like to point out my post
has been on point so far, I even fleshed out some more ideas.

@jynxyjoe, your source of news and informed opinion when the truth matters!
 
Really, come on. You have to say something specific to back up your claim.
TP

Well quite honestly, I can't. That's why I said "I can't possibly imagine it's to the same extent."

The debacle between Emirates and Canada from a few years ago just kind of left a sour taste in my mouth.
 
Really, come on. You have to say something specific to back up your claim.


TP

Tourism/transportation is an important part of the government strategy to maintain the flow of cash into Dubai to be not as dependent on oil. The airline was founded by the royal family of Dubai. The current CEO is the son of the former ruler of Dubai, the brother of the former ruler of Dubai, and the uncle of the current ruler of Dubai. Need I go on more? I will.....Isn't he also the head of the equivalent of the FAA in Dubai? Do you think Richard Anderson would be appointed to be the FAA head here in the States while CEO of Delta? Is that a law we should change here in the States to level the playing field? Is that an innovative approach you talk about?

Oh, by the way.....your talking points are the same one used by a speaker I heard in 2011 with @ATN_Pilot.
 
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