Envoy TA Voting: The Better Part of Valor

[BobDDuck]

Did that response kind of back fire on him?

Nope. He retired about a year ago after a "long and distinguished carrier". As bad as a people person Keith was, he was a REALLY savvy manager who knew how to save money, although often times at the employee's expense. During the post 9/11 years he managed to grow the airline despite the fact we were a wholly owned and our parent company was in BK and desperately farming out every bit of the operation it could.

There is a fair amount of anger still about how the Jets For Jobs deal went down at the three WO carriers (PDT, ALG and PSA) due to a perception (not altogether untrue) that the PSA MEC went back on it's word. However,the story I was told (by a management participant who was in the room at the time), the only company that came in to the room with a comprehensive plan on how to implement the jets at a WO was PSA.

 

[BobDDuck]

@BobDDuck you think 16 days of airport reserve is bad... Ha!

At 9E, the '99 agreement allowed unlimited uncredited RR per month/year. 20 days of RR in a 30 day bid period, 21 days in a 31 day bid period. It happened.

Our only restriction was no more than 3 in a row. So it was pretty normal to sit 3 days of airport reserve, have one day of regular reserve and then go back to Airport Reserve for your 5th day.

 

[bLizZuE]

That's very true. It's highly unlikely that anybody at PSA now will sit 4 years on reserve, with only 10 days off and be at the mercy of crew scheduling. Nobody there now will have to work under a CEO who was on record as saying that pilots were no more than numbers to him. Nobody there will get pushed down by flow backs but then when the time to flow up arrives discover that there actually was never any language written to address the up part of the equation. Nobody there will sit airport reserve for 16 days in the month, fly the other 4 and still manage to credit only 72 hours.

I'm not sure what game we're playing. "I had it worse than you?" All I meant was that the company is changing rapidly and you can't sing the song about what an amazing company it was when you were there and imply it will be the same going forward (and then try to impress me with how bad you apparently had it).

I'm not looking to create some pissing contest about which crappy place to work is less crappy than the other. It doesn't matter.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I heard that causes 'mo problems though...

(relative) Stacks of chedda' and no time off has been my life for some time. No problems.

 

[ClarkGriswold]

Nope. He retired about a year ago after a "long and distinguished carrier". As bad as a people person Keith was, he was a REALLY savvy manager who knew how to save money, although often times at the employee's expense. During the post 9/11 years he managed to grow the airline despite the fact we were a wholly owned and our parent company was in BK and desperately farming out every bit of the operation it could.

There is a fair amount of anger still about how the Jets For Jobs deal went down at the three WO carriers (PDT, ALG and PSA) due to a perception (not altogether untrue) that the PSA MEC went back on it's word. However,the story I was told (by a management participant who was in the room at the time), the only company that came in to the room with a comprehensive plan on how to implement the jets at a WO was PSA.

I mean't about @bLizZuE trying to compare PSA then and now

 

[ctab5060X]

@BobDDuck in regards to the MMMTO thing- I have no idea what schedules are like at PSA. Regardless, I couldn't leave Eagle and go anywhere and get my current MMMTO situation.

So... what you are saying is that being Envoy FO is the most money and days off you will have in your career??

Then again, with the way some of you are so desperately holding onto the sinking/shrinking ship that is Envoy... it might be the most money you make because you are leaving a ton of money on the table by blindly refusing to do what is necessary to advance your career beyond regional FO.

FYI... Envoy has no business flying those 175s either, contract or not.

There are a few on this website who swear up and down that making lateral moves all over the Regional industry is a smart move. It baffles me, really. Nowhere else in real life or on the internet have I seen people actually encourage lateral moves at this level.

It's less a lateral move and more of a getting out of the traffic jam, taking a little detour, and rejoining the freeway ahead of the pack.

I understand that for some of you on jetcareers it worked out. Or has worked out so far but long term is still to be determined. Regardless, it is not as easy as some of you make it out to be. To tell some one with 5 years seniority to just quit and go to the Regional de jure is nuts. I'm sorry to be so blunt but I can't think of any other way to describe it.

According to your philosophy, I was nuts to make a lateral move. All some of us are trying to do is lead a horse (you) to water. It's your decision to make whether or not to drink the proffered water.

Oh, and Jared: LMAO @ the MMORPG comment. I never heard of MMMTO either.

You obviously haven't been paying attention around here then. @Derg has been saying that for years.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I need Into this 'group text'

No, you don't.

 

[BobDDuck]

I'm not sure what game we're playing. "I had it worse than you?" All I meant was that the company is changing rapidly and you can't sing the song about what an amazing company it was when you were there and imply it will be the same going forward (and then try to impress me with how bad you apparently had it).

I'm not looking to create some pissing contest about which crappy place to work is less crappy than the other. It doesn't matter.

How am I playing the my regional was worse than your regional game when you are accusing me of saying how amazing it was?

Here's the bottom line, and keep in mind, I've got absolutely no skin in the game other than a bunch of friends still there:

You stated that Eagle's contract was better than PSA's, even after getting "kneecapped". Then you back peddled and said that parts of it were better. Then you back paddled some more and said that with the way changes are occurring in the future there is no guarantee that PSA's contract will remain good going forward.

You, like many others, have constantly bad mouthed PSA's contract as a whole without bothering to provide ANY evidence of how bad it is, other than the 4/12 caps. That's a pretty personal insult to me as I (and a few other guys) worked pretty damn hard to come out of negotiations in 2013 with a document that wouldn't allow guys to play the "my regional sucks more" game anymore. I think we did a nice job of that and yet I hear people, like you, who are completely ignorant of the actual contract running their mouths about how much better Eagle's will be even if they take these hits.

Ignorance bothers me. That's all.

 

[roundout]

Then again, with the way some of you are so desperately holding onto the sinking/shrinking ship that is Envoy... it might be the most money you make because you are leaving a ton of money on the table by blindly refusing to do what is necessary to advance your career beyond regional FO.

It's less a lateral move and more of a getting out of the traffic jam, taking a little detour, and rejoining the freeway ahead of the pack.



According to your philosophy, I was nuts to make a lateral move. All some of us are trying to do is lead a horse (you) to water. It's your decision to make whether or not to drink the proffered water.



You obviously haven't been paying attention around here then. @Derg has been saying that for years.

We get it. You timed it right. Your experience clearly reflects what everyone else should do.

How many times have we read posts this very forum admonishing young pilots to choose QOL, live in base in possible, and never, ever chase an upgrade?

 

[roundout]

How am I playing the my regional was worse than your regional game when you are accusing me of saying how amazing it was?


You stated that Eagle's contract was better than PSA's, even after getting "kneecapped". Then you back peddled and said that parts of it were better. Then you back paddled some more and said that with the way changes are occurring in the future there is no guarantee that PSA's contract will remain good going forward.

People always think their stuff is better because it's theirs. I own a jetta. The book is $5k, but I'm going to ask $7.5k because it's mine. Disregard the fact that the paint is starting to fade, two door lock modules don't work, and only 3 Windows actuate. But I think I'll ask above market value anyway because this one's really, really a peach.

 

[bLizZuE]

So... what you are saying is that being Envoy FO is the most money and days off you will have in your career??

I meant at the FFD level.

Then again, with the way some of you are so desperately holding onto the sinking/shrinking ship that is Envoy... it might be the most money you make because you are leaving a ton of money on the table by blindly refusing to do what is necessary to advance your career beyond regional FO.

Pardon, but I am working my tail off to move beyond the regional airline.

FYI... Envoy has no business flying those 175s either, contract or not.

Don't care what we fly, as long as I have a job.

It's less a lateral move and more of a getting out of the traffic jam, taking a little detour, and rejoining the freeway ahead of the pack.

Perhaps, but being so close to the upgrade and so close to moving on, it makes little sense to jump now.

According to your philosophy, I was nuts to make a lateral move. All some of us are trying to do is lead a horse (you) to water. It's your decision to make whether or not to drink the proffered water.

I made no assertions about your choice. Different situation and had different results. You're making a lot of assumptions.

You obviously haven't been paying attention around here then. @Derg has been saying that for years.

If you would have said W2/time off, I would have been on board. I am sorry I didn't know the YOLO acronym of the day.

 

[ctab5060X]

We get it. You timed it right. Your experience clearly reflects what everyone else should do.

How many times have we read posts this very forum admonishing young pilots to choose QOL, live in base in possible, and never, ever chase an upgrade?

I'm not the only one who has benefited from a lateral move.

One thing about this industry is that nothing stays the same. Be willing to go with the flow or risk getting left behind.

 

[bLizZuE]

How am I playing the my regional was worse than your regional game when you are accusing me of saying how amazing it was?

Here's the bottom line, and keep in mind, I've got absolutely no skin in the game other than a bunch of friends still there:

You stated that Eagle's contract was better than PSA's, even after getting "kneecapped". Then you back peddled and said that parts of it were better. Then you back paddled some more and said that with the way changes are occurring in the future there is no guarantee that PSA's contract will remain good going forward.

You, like many others, have constantly bad mouthed PSA's contract as a whole without bothering to provide ANY evidence of how bad it is, other than the 4/12 caps. That's a pretty personal insult to me as I (and a few other guys) worked pretty damn hard to come out of negotiations in 2013 with a document that wouldn't allow guys to play the "my regional sucks more" game anymore. I think we did a nice job of that and yet I hear people, like you, who are completely ignorant of the actual contract running their mouths about how much better Eagle's will be even if they take these hits.

Ignorance bothers me. That's all.

I have never bad mouthed PSA, and if you find a single comment from me that even insinuates that (which you won't) I'll apologize. My comments stemmed from someone saying "HAHA NOW YOU SUCK" and all I meant was don't start counting the chickens quite yet.

Your whole premise for this post is based on the assumption that I have ever, or am currently, bad mouthing a place you use to work. I haven't, I'm not, get over it.

 

[roundout]

I'm not the only one who has benefited from a lateral move.

One thing about this industry is that nothing stays the same. Be willing to go with the flow or risk getting left behind.

Would a pilot getting hired at compass or PSA today would be a quick upgrade, or do you think that they'd be the poor guy who got in just a few weeks or months too late and would forever be on the precipice of upgrade while his regional stagnates?

 

[ClarkGriswold]

Pardon, but I am working my tail off to move beyond the regional airline.

Good, How so?

 

[Dexter]

Would a pilot getting hired at compass or PSA today would be a quick upgrade, or do you think that they'd be the poor guy who got in just a few weeks or months too late and would forever be on the precipice of upgrade while his regional stagnates?

The way I view it (mainly because it's what I'm doing) is even guys who get on at PSA/Compass from now until probably the start of summer, assuming they're coming from somewhere stagnant, will have far greater relative seniority and better QOL/money than their 1-5 year FO jobs they're leaving.

With a 90 hour line at Compass on first year pay, I'll be within about $250-300 of my 2nd year RSV pay at Envoy... and have 2-4 more days off a month... And have far better scheduling flexibility.. And be far far closer to an upgrade. Being a really senior FO for 1-3 years before upgrade is far easier to stomach than 3-4 years of rsv, followed by 2-3 years of being a junior line holder, then 1-2 years of senior line holder before going and being on RSV for 3+ years as a captain. To say nothing of the lost wages a stagnant seniority list creates, mentally, being on a seniority list that has movement is big (for me at least.)

When @Derg is posting that you can upgrade faster at Delta than you can at 3 regionals, then those regionals probably aren't the place to be.

 

[Skyvector]

I'm not the only one who has benefited from a lateral move.

One thing about this industry is that nothing stays the same. Be willing to go with the flow or risk getting left behind.

So your advice for pilots is to recycle themselves at year 1 pay over and over thus playing right into management's hands?? This is supposed to be good advice how?

Again, if you are junior and time it just right it may work. But for the most part it is not advisable and only makes things worse for everybody. You and a couple of others on here swear by the altar of the lateral move, which is great. But for every one of you I could reference 5 cases of pilots who made multiple lateral moves and only set themselves back in the process.

And you obviously have it out for Envoy for some reason. Your characterization of our company as "sinking" short sighted. We are currently voting on a TA. It closes next week, then lets talk. If it gets voted down, yes. Envoy will sink. If it passes, Envoy will be as viable a place to work for as ever. Our MEC Chairman said so himself on tonight's conference call: For the past year AA has gone out of their way TO NOT invest in Envoy and make things bad. With a new contract in place AA will utilize all their resources and efforts to invest in Envoy and make this an attractive airline. With that First Officers will upgrade to Captain and Captains will flow to AA. Oh, and starting with the protected pilot group you don't even need to be a Captain to flow to AA.

So before you make any further characterizations of Envoy how about we wait until after the 23rd?

 

[bLizZuE]

Good, How so?

Job fairs. Full time student. Interviews. Networking. Getting letters of recommendation from people I fly with. Updating my applications. Not necessarily in that order.

Add: volunteering.

 

[ClarkGriswold]

Job fairs. Full time student. Interviews. Networking. Getting letters of recommendation from people I fly with. Updating my applications. Not necessarily in that order.

That's good. What do you mean by interviews?

 

[roundout]

The way I view it (mainly because it's what I'm doing) is even guys who get on at PSA/Compass from now until probably the start of summer, assuming they're coming from somewhere stagnant, will have far greater relative seniority and better QOL/money than their 1-5 year FO jobs they're leaving.

With a 90 hour line at Compass on first year pay, I'll be within about $250-300 of my 2nd year RSV pay at Envoy... and have 2-4 more days off a month... And have far better scheduling flexibility.. And be far far closer to an upgrade. Being a really senior FO for 1-3 years before upgrade is far easier to stomach than 3-4 years of rsv, followed by 2-3 years of being a junior line holder, then 1-2 years of senior line holder before going and being on RSV for 3+ years as a captain. To say nothing of the lost wages a stagnant seniority list creates, mentally, being on a seniority list that has movement is big (for me at least.)

Perhaps, for the uber junior it's a wash. For me, I can hold a 80+ hour line at envoy, 4 day trips. I live in base. I'd rather hold 2 or 3 days but those barely even exist anymore. If I was to go to compass, I'd have to commute. So even after advancing off reserve I'd still be gone minimum 4 days + commute time, plus crashpad/hotel/etc., pay for a hotel during training, get through a for -jeopardy training course...for a 3 year upgrade. At envoy, in 3 years upgrade should (note SHOULD) be about the same. Right now upgrade is 7 years, as there were some 07 hire CA awards in the latest system displacement.

I am not trying to malign your move, because I don't know your seniority, your home, your age, marital status or anything else about you. However, the point should be made that a lateral move to the regional du jour is a road littered with the broken hopes and dreams of many pilots. It works out for some, no doubt, but it is far from a sure bet.