Envoy TA Voting: The Better Part of Valor

In spite of the propaganda espoused about "taking it back" or whatever ALPA national is spouting now. They really need to give up on the regionals and get as much as possible at their mainline pilot groups. I have no problem with driving the regionals to the lowest possible denominator in compensation&benefits. If the job becomes so undesirable than where will the pool of qualified candidates come from? In this case the law of supply&demand can win the day against scope and keep the jobs at mainline. Isn't this where "everyone" wants to be?
 
You're stating the obvious...And, if you read what I said without getting your panties in a wad over your parochial adoration of ALPA. You can see I am not "blaming" ALPA.
 
BobDDuck said:
Nobody was saying your contract was awful. YOU said that it was much better than PSA's, which, in the terms of MMMTO it's not. Also in terms of fleet size and block hour protections (ie: the regional equivalent of scope since regionals, especially in the form of WOs don't actually own any flying they can protect with traditional "scope") it's about the same as everybody else.
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No, I didn't.

I have no idea what MMMTO is. Is that like an MMORPG?
 
@BobDDuck in regards to the MMMTO thing- I have no idea what schedules are like at PSA. Regardless, I couldn't leave Eagle and go anywhere and get my current MMMTO situation.
 
There are a few on this website who swear up and down that making lateral moves all over the Regional industry is a smart move. It baffles me, really. Nowhere else in real life or on the internet have I seen people actually encourage lateral moves at this level.

I understand that for some of you on jetcareers it worked out. Or has worked out so far but long term is still to be determined. Regardless, it is not as easy as some of you make it out to be. To tell some one with 5 years seniority to just quit and go to the Regional de jure is nuts. I'm sorry to be so blunt but I can't think of any other way to describe it.

In any case, with this new contract Envoy pilots will have no reason to leave to any other airline other than an LCC or Legacy. What I would like to see is people like Charlie put their money where their mouth is and QUIT if this TA passes, don't take the $7,500 bonus but QUIT the day this passes and go make that lateral move.

Betcha he doesn't. That is all people like him are: Talk. And unfortunately for the rest of us...he talks a lot.

Oh, and Jared: LMAO @ the MMORPG comment. I never heard of MMMTO either.
 
Skyvector said:
There are a few on this website who swear up and down that making lateral moves all over the Regional industry is a smart move. It baffles me, really. Nowhere else in real life or on the internet have I seen people actually encourage lateral moves at this level.

I understand that for some of you on jetcareers it worked out. Or has worked out so far but long term is still to be determined. Regardless, it is not as easy as some of you make it out to be. To tell some one with 5 years seniority to just quit and go to the Regional de jure is nuts. I'm sorry to be so blunt but I can't think of any other way to describe it.

In any case, with this new contract Envoy pilots will have no reason to leave to any other airline other than an LCC or Legacy. What I would like to see is people like Charlie put their money where their mouth is and QUIT if this TA passes, don't take the $7,500 bonus but QUIT the day this passes and go make that lateral move.

Betcha he doesn't. That is all people like him are: Talk. And unfortunately for the rest of us...he talks a lot.

Oh, and Jared: LMAO @ the MMORPG comment. I never heard of MMMTO either.
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The fleet guarantee is 40 planes with the new contract. That's 400 pilots. You don't think there isn't a reason for people to keep bailing?
 
wheelsup said:
The fleet guarantee is 40 planes with the new contract. That's 400 pilots. You don't think there isn't a reason for people to keep bailing?
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400 pilots at Envoy would be nothing but the topped out lifer Captains. You really think that is the business model AAG has in mind?

I know that is the simple way to look at it. And it works if you are attempting to justify a NO vote and/or attempting to make it seem like Envoy is doomed. But I hate to tell you we are not doomed. Not with this new contract. How many planes are other Regionals guaranteed vs how many they operate? Who even has a fleet guarantee of any kind? Does Skywest? Republic? I know PSA does: 30. And how many are they getting?

Again, 40 E-175s is not the target. Not by a mile.
 
Lateral moves are being encouraged because the game has changed and the model is failing. Set yourself up by taking advantage of opportunities, quit holding onto the past and the idea of preserving the "legacy" of a washed up regional. PIC time is key still and opportunities are being wasted by spouting off online about holding the line instead of applying to these airlines. As plenty of others have stated laterals work, the key in their cases is they siezed the opportunity quickly when it was a viable option. Clock is ticking.
 
Better, yes. Much better? Don't know. Splitting hairs perhaps, but I'm not saying we have the end all FFD contract (because we don't, ASA might have that crown).

I get that you're here cheering for your alma mater but I think your tenure and the future of PSA are going to be drastically different.
 
bLizZuE said:
Better, yes. Much better? Don't know. Splitting hairs perhaps, but I'm not saying we have the end all FFD contract (because we don't, ASA might have that crown).

I get that you're here cheering for your alma mater but I think your tenure and the future of PSA are going to be drastically different.
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I think it's pretty tough to compare parts of contracts that aren't time off/W2 related. I'd say PSA is right at the top of the spectrum for both of those categories though.

As far as other sections? Who knows, like you say, splitting hairs maybe. ASA might have vacation touching, but they also have movable days off. I, for one, could not stomach that.

You can go on and on with nit-picky things like that. "Better" is a movable definition depending on each person, again, unless we are talking strict per pilot value.

PSA offers great flexibility to either work a lot, or a little, or right in the middle and make good credit either way.

That being said I'm sure there are things in other contracts I'd love to have that I don't even know exist.
 
bLizZuE said:
I get that you're here cheering for your alma mater but I think your tenure and the future of PSA are going to be drastically different.
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That's very true. It's highly unlikely that anybody at PSA now will sit 4 years on reserve, with only 10 days off and be at the mercy of crew scheduling. Nobody there now will have to work under a CEO who was on record as saying that pilots were no more than numbers to him. Nobody there will get pushed down by flow backs but then when the time to flow up arrives discover that there actually was never any language written to address the up part of the equation. Nobody there will sit airport reserve for 16 days in the month, fly the other 4 and still manage to credit only 72 hours.
 
BobDDuck said:
That's very true. It's highly unlikely that anybody at PSA now will sit 4 years on reserve, with only 10 days off and be at the mercy of crew scheduling. Nobody there now will have to work under a CEO who was on record as saying that pilots were no more than numbers to him. Nobody there will get pushed down by flow backs but then when the time to flow up arrives discover that there actually was never any language written to address the up part of the equation. Nobody there will sit airport reserve for 16 days in the month, fly the other 4 and still manage to credit only 72 hours.
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Dear lord you are bringing up bad memories.

I don't think I ever did anywhere near 16 days airport reserve though, 10 max.....yowza:(
 
@BobDDuck you think 16 days of airport reserve is bad... Ha!

At 9E, the '99 agreement allowed unlimited uncredited RR per month/year. 20 days of RR in a 30 day bid period, 21 days in a 31 day bid period. It happened.
 
BobDDuck said:
That's very true. It's highly unlikely that anybody at PSA now will sit 4 years on reserve, with only 10 days off and be at the mercy of crew scheduling. Nobody there now will have to work under a CEO who was on record as saying that pilots were no more than numbers to him. Nobody there will get pushed down by flow backs but then when the time to flow up arrives discover that there actually was never any language written to address the up part of the equation. Nobody there will sit airport reserve for 16 days in the month, fly the other 4 and still manage to credit only 72 hours.
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Did that response kind of back fire on him?
 
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