135 SIC what can I log

lewispilot4856

Well-Known Member
Okay, I have looked all over the internet and have not found an answer to this question. Here is my situation:

I work for a 135 scheduled passenger commuter operation that flies C208's, I am a SIC and completed my 135.293 annual checkout in the plane. The operation has the exemption to operate single pilot with a working autopilot. Normally the flights operate as 2 pilot crews, however if necessary they can go single pilot. Based on the disputes that people have, more importantly the airlines, as to whether you can log SIC time in the caravan (since it is type certified as single pilot) I am leaning towards not logging SIC time, but that is not my main question. My main question is that what other time can I log aside from SIC time? I know that if I am not the pilot flying I cannot log "actual instrument" time when in IMC, or approaches, or landings, but does that apply to XC, night, and turbine time also?

Any insight would be much appreciated
 
Great article, i am glad an airline is at least addressing this issue. I am most interested in figuring out if I can log xc, night, and turbine time legally, unless that is dependent on whether I can log sic time or not?
 
Here is what the FAA allows the SIC's at Ameriflight to log:

If properly rated, and current per part 135, a SIC can log all hours of flight, wether acting as the pilot flying or pilot monitoring, as total time SIC. The SIC can also log cross country and turbine.

If the SIC is the pilot that is flying, they can also log multiengine time, instrument time, turbine time, and approaches.

Even in the sole manipulator of controls, the SIC can never log any time as PIC.

This is true, however, because they applied to the FAA for these exemptions and have been approved. If your carrier has not done this, it is possible that you can not log any time at all unless you are a required crew member.
 
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I am sure that there are other sources, but AMF seems to be the largest company that uses "unnecessary" SIC's.
 
Okay, I have looked all over the internet and have not found an answer to this question. Here is my situation:

I work for a 135 scheduled passenger commuter operation that flies C208's, I am a SIC and completed my 135.293 annual checkout in the plane. The operation has the exemption to operate single pilot with a working autopilot. Normally the flights operate as 2 pilot crews, however if necessary they can go single pilot. Based on the disputes that people have, more importantly the airlines, as to whether you can log SIC time in the caravan (since it is type certified as single pilot) I am leaning towards not logging SIC time, but that is not my main question. My main question is that what other time can I log aside from SIC time? I know that if I am not the pilot flying I cannot log "actual instrument" time when in IMC, or approaches, or landings, but does that apply to XC, night, and turbine time also?

Any insight would be much appreciated

Even if your company has the autopilot exemption for SICs, if the company requires an SIC per their manual, you become a required crew member and can log time as such.

As SIC, log it as such plus the condition of flight (night, XC, turbine, and instrument).
 
Some companies use SIC's for insurance or other reasons (the SIC's also act as flight attendants, for instance). This has nothing to do with an FAA requirement. If this is the case, you can not log the time. It has to be approved by the FAA.
 
Passenger carrying operations under 135 require two pilots by regulation, thus you are a required crewmember and can log the time. Different than the freight ops being quoted.

Well then, there you go. Log away!

From the OP, it sounded like you were not required if there was an autopilot installed.
 
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From the OP, it sounded like you were not required if there was an autopilot installed.

There is an ops spec that allows an operator to, under certain circumstances, use an autopilot instead of a second pilot. Note that the key word is "allowed", not "required", which means that even if the company has this ops spec they can choose to not use it, in which case the original regulation requiring two pilots is back in play.
 
Even if your company has the autopilot exemption for SICs, if the company requires an SIC per their manual, you become a required crew member and can log time as such.

As SIC, log it as such plus the condition of flight (night, XC, turbine, and instrument).

Exactly that. Passenger-carrying operations—autopilot is authorized in lieu of, but is not required to be used in lieu of.

You're a required crewmember due to the regulations under which the flight was conducted, thus logging SIC.

The only caveat is that you better not use the autopilot:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...009/nichols - (2009) legal interpretation.pdf

-Fox
 
Passenger carrying operations under 135 require two pilots by regulation, thus you are a required crewmember and can log the time. Different than the freight ops being quoted.
This is not true. Unless you mean under certain conditions (# of pax, ops spec, etc).
 
I misspoke slightly. The correct wording is "Part 135 passenger carrying operations under IFR" requires a second in command.

135.101

Edit to add; I'm not used to thinking about non-IFR operations since they are impractical in this part of the country.
 
135.101 - SIC Required under IFR - "Except as provided in § 135.105, no person may operate an aircraft carrying passengers under IFR unless there is a second in command in the aircraft."

135.105 - Exception to Second In Command requirement: Approval for use of autopilot system

(a) Except as provided in §§ 135.99 and 135.111, unless two pilots are required by this chapter for operations under VFR, a person may operate an aircraft without a second in command, if it is equipped with an operative approved autopilot system and the use of that system is authorized by appropriate operations specifications. No certificate holder may use any person, nor may any person serve, as a pilot in command under this section of an aircraft operated in a commuter operation, as defined in part 119 of this chapterunless that person has at least 100 hours pilot in command flight time in the make and model of aircraft to be flown and has met all other applicable requirements of this part.

Excerpt from an FAA letter of interpretation:

Under sections 135.1 01 and 135.105, two pilots are required when carrying passengers
under IFR unless an operative and approved autopilot system is installed, in which case one pilot is required. Although section 135.105 allows single-pilot operations with the use of an operative approved autopilot system, it does not require that all future flights be conducted in that manner. See Tarsa Interpretation (Mar. 26, 1992). In other words, the operator can elect either to operate under IFR with one pilot using the autopilot system or with two pilots, with the second pilot acting as SIC, without using the autopilot system. See id. Provided
the certificate holder elects before the IFR operation to not use the autopilot system, then two pilots are required by the regulations under which the flight is conducted, and the pilot designated as SIC may log SIC flight time.
 
Here is what the FAA allows the SIC's at Ameriflight to log:

If properly rated, and current per part 135, a SIC can log all hours of flight, wether acting as the pilot flying or pilot monitoring, as total time SIC. The SIC can also log cross country and turbine.

If the SIC is the pilot that is flying, they can also log multiengine time, instrument time, turbine time, and approaches.

Even in the sole manipulator of controls, the SIC can never log any time as PIC.

This is true, however, because they applied to the FAA for these exemptions and have been approved. If your carrier has not done this, it is possible that you can not log any time at all unless you are a required crew member.

Does this mean if the SIC is not Pilot flying, they can not log multiengine time? That wouldn't make sense.

And is this a direct quote from the FAA?
 
I misspoke slightly. The correct wording is "Part 135 passenger carrying operations under IFR" requires a second in command.

135.101

Edit to add; I'm not used to thinking about non-IFR operations since they are impractical in this part of the country.

You can operate single pilot I'm passenger carrying operations. But you have to be approved to do it under IFR. I did it for a while in a Chieftain.

Edit: Never mind. I see where the horse has been beat on this now.
 
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