Trip7
Well-Known Member
Legacies and ULCCs target vastly different customers. Spirit's customers are very price sensitive pax that fly once or twice a year. If ULCC's are chipping away at someone's market share it's Greyhound.
AA hiring rate and Envoy flow rant
- Thread starter HobGoblin
- Start date
Legacies and ULCCs target vastly different customers. Spirit's customers are very price sensitive pax that fly once or twice a year. If ULCC's are chipping away at someone's market share it's Greyhound.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Why would that make them more qualified than anyone else?
Here's the historical problem with flow: It only benefits the top guys on select seniority lists. For junior pilots and off-the-street hires (who, combined, comprise the majority of pilots competing for legacy jobs), it does nothing but jam up the pipeline and restrict the ability to move on. Junior pilots have absolutely no reason to support it.
Unfortunately though, ALPA and IBT have long been protecting the interests of the most senior pilots, and this is yet another example. Flow is a system that looks great on paper, but in practice only keeps the junior pilots (and OTS hires) less able to move on to a legacy.
Frankly, junior pilots are sick of taking it on the head time and time again. Very few give a damn about flow anymore because it simply does not work for the majority.
Nick
Well-Known Member
Keep an unruly and restless work force at bay? ?
What is this, a kindergarten teacher trying to manage a romper room after their class of kids missed their nap time?
Since you asked, I will elaborate a bit on just why else on God's green earth a flow arrangement would exist.
In 2005 when Northwest Airlines declared bankruptcy, one of the things that ended up coming out of it was a change in the scope clause and this resulted in two groups of 36 76-seat airplanes being outsourced. 36 CRJ-900s went to Mesaba, and 36 E-175s were to be to be sent to what was then referred to as NewCo, an airline planned to be started from scratch using the operating certificate from defunct Atlantic Coast Air/Independence Air.
NewCo went on to be named Compass Airlines and although others such as Richman might be able to fill you in on the details, the NWA MEC wanted to at least offer something to the several hundred furloughed pilots if they were going to take a scope concession. The idea was, they could get off the street and take a job at Compass while they waited for their recall to NWA. This flow-up and flow-down agreement was created with this in mind, and aimed to get the furloughs back at mainline at a metered rate and of course they would keep their original seniority number. If times got worse and more furloughs occurred, it would give a furloughee an opportunity to still fly someplace, in seniority order for those who chose to use take the opportunity.
Perhaps surprisingly, only three furloughees took the offer. What perhaps was expected to be a pilot group mostly comprised of furloughed pilots ended up being almost entirely off-the-street pilots from all different carriers.
The flow language is what it is, and after the sale of the wholly owned carrier, an ending DOH was established for the flow-up and a preferential interview agreement was later setup, although has not been used as the flow-up program is still in effect with remaining pilots.
Other flow programs may very well be for keeping unruly workforces at bay, although I doubt it because there are other reasons posted by people in this thread, but that's the more accurate scoop on one of them that your notion does not apply to.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
They're already doing the job. It's not about whether they're more qualified. A pilot at ASA is already flying Delta passengers. The idea that someone flying a competitor's passengers should jump in front of him for that position on the mainline seniority list is asinine.
Flows benefit everyone. Senior guys flow up, then mid-seniority guys are now senior guys, and junior guys are now mid-seniority guys, and so on. Then the next group flows up, and the process repeats itself. In the meantime, their jobs are more stable because longevity at their regional is being kept rock-bottom, which keeps their block-hour costs low without them having to keep taking concessions to keep it there. That means they don't lose flying, so they keep their job until their flow number comes through.
Again, good for the mainline carrier, good for the regional carrier, good for the pilot. The only person it's not good for is the arrogant • pilot at mainline who thinks he's better than everyone else just because he got through a meaningless interview process, and he demands that everyone else do the same stupidity. He'll get over it.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Also it's worth separating the NewCo (Compass 175s) airplanes. 36 Mesaba 900's were in the scope clause, the 175's were OUTSIDE of scope. The agreement with the NWA mec for those airplanes to come in outside of scope was a flow down that would flush the toilet on 90% of pilots at NewCo year after year (10%, then 1% year after year for training department purposes to train NWA furloughs) to make way for and furloughs from NWA as a result. The DC-9's had been a target for years and they felt the big RJ's and more of them would screw their pilots, so they wanted financial punishment for doing so.
/not directed at nick, separate post in true, hard to understand, multi-quote fashion
Mesaba's flow was an honest to God attempt by mainline pilots to cut through the NWA HR BS and give their wholly owned a path to NWA. A that many wanted and a few got in (due to hiring limitations) and now it's morphed into a Delta flow that is nearly complete through a merger. Unfortunately for some posters on this board, NWA culture supposed that regionals were doing the same job for a lower pay scale, and if they wanted to come do it with them in Airbuses instead, all the better. It was as welcoming and egalitarian culture based in the MSP area with midwesterners who were humble, well educated, and high earners. Rhetoric about "proving" yourself was non-sense, and it was management's job to get rid of bad apples. It's still their job, but when bad apples remain it's somehow the union's fault.
I've volunteered with ALPA, there are times we tell management, "look we'll make the process fair, but we aren't making any deals to get this guy back later" and they still screw it up because they really don't care, and it's not important to them after 5 minutes. Management is weird, they live their life in 5 minute blocks managing one fire after another and be bothered to do paperwork required to document a employee's grounds for termination. We have them do the paperwork so pilots are fired groundlessly, it's not much and it still doesn't work all the time when they do decide to fire pilots.
Another dirty secret, is if management wants you gone you'll be gone. If we're lucky a union can get a guy back after some time off and we might never get the money back you're owed. If a moron is still at work he's either not a moron (you're just exaggerating) or your management is lazy and doesn't care. It's their company, not yours. Don't like it? Leave.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
I'll also add as a reply to myself, the "proving yourself" crap from pilots always stems from a culture they were indoctrinated into, or they may have some confidence and ability issues of their own which they project onto others. If the pilot in question is under 2k, then I agree there's some question, one a guy is flying regularly (+30hours a month) and has a couple thousand hours under their belt they are a good candidate for any transport metal. If they understand the customer service side even better.
I used to work for a delta regional, Delta for all it's old problems spent a lot of money on customer service. Derglas used to say things like "if only customer service was a part of the process" and Delta made it so. When crap hit the fan on my flight, or even if I was waiting a while on my commute, I could get on the Delta app and tell "stranded" passengers (whatever that means) where they were rebooked to, check their bags, talk to them about their options, and assure them of the process everything was being taken care of. Delta treated Endeavor/mesaba like crap, but they do a good job with pax and they give employees a lot of tools to help. Maybe they sit delta guys down in IOE and explain to them how the app works. I was very familiar with the delta product and felt empowered that I could help a lot of people from my phone in my free time. That's, sometimes, a nice thing to have in a new hire, and a lot of the pilots they are taking through the SSP and flow are able to do just that.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
We contract with FedEx and UPS during peak to move their freight. Right on, I'm first in line for Purple and Brown!
I can't think of a single flow program that's benefitted everyone. Not one. It's aaaaall great in theory, but can you tell me which flow program has been successful for everyone? Compass might be the closest in recent history, but that's all shut down at this point. Those hired post-flow are in the same boat as everyone else at any other regional.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
You keep wanting to talk about old flow arrangements which bear no resemblance to the new agreements being offered.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Except that new hires gained massive amounts of seniority quickly from the flows leaving, allowing them to finally upgrade where they never would at other regionals.
A pilot hired in late 2013 will be in the top 20% of the company by late 2015.
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
Mainline has no say over who a regional hires and that is one of my biggest problems with a flow. There are a lot of guys flying people around in jets that shouldn't be allowed near a plane. Two DUIs one being last year no problem, Transtates will hire you.
Now if you want to say all hiring is done by mainline and everyone starts in a RJ than maybe I can get behind a flow.
amorris311
Well-Known Member
The original hires at Compass had the NWA hiring platform as well as the HR and line pilots from NWA conducting the interviews. Now it is the reduced Delta interview. (Think ssp)
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
I liked the way Compass was set up, and to a point I like the SSP. The biggest problem is only WO can do something like what Compass had.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Typical union mentality. No, they are not entitled to it just because their regional partner, for the moment, is flying for Delta. What about Air Wisconsin that for a while was exclusively United Express? Then parts AirTran JetConnect, and then let go of both over time and now is exclusively US Airways Express? Regionals are contract feed and new flying/contracts come and go. It doesn't entitle you to a job any sooner than someone at another regional.
History disagrees with you. What you wrote is what was supposed to happen in theory, but actuality was much different.
NOT if the regional is wholly owned. If say American Airlines owned American Eagle (AMR a while back), suppose American hired off the street a pilot from jetBlue. That costs AA just one newhire training cycle. Now imagine if AA hired an Eagle CA flow. AMR now has to pay for the new AA cycle, plus the Eagel FO upgrading to CA to fill his vacating position, plus the newhire Eagle FO to replace the upgrading FO. That is three new training cycles AMR has to pay for, versus just one off the street.
falconvalley
Absentee Dad of the OOTSK, Runner, Cat Frustrator
In my experience SJets connection at Regional A is not the same as it is at Regional B. It just so happens that the airplanes are painted that way and the pax paid for a SJets ticket. The pilots aren't more qualified for SJets based on that. As a matter of fact, some of the guys I fly with demonstrate their ignorance of SJets.
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
What flow agreements? The only new agreements I have seen offered is Piedmont's and that came with some hefty pay, retirement, and medical concessions.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
You know better than that. Mainline has a say in everything that their regional partners do. Not just a say, in fact, but absolute control. There's a difference between not having control and not giving a flying you-know-what. The only thing that mainline cares about is that the seats get filled. Mainline management is smart enough to realize that pilots are basically interchangeable. Doesn't matter which ones you hire. Sure, a few bad apples exist, but it's virtually impossible to weed them out using an interview process, so you have no choice but to deal with that in training.
Mainline management doesn't care who flies their passengers. A pilot is a pilot is a pilot. They realize it, but pilots are too arrogant to recognize it.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Piedmont gave up virtually nothing for their flow. Stop listening to the STW idiots. The PSA arrangement is a flow in everything but name. I believe only two people have been rejected so far, and one of them showed up looking like a hobo from what I heard.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
You say hobo, I say I looked original and my indie rock outfit is all the dressing up I need when I fight the man. @Rocketman99 uses the word hipster, but that's so old, I'm a progressive and original thinker and I refuse to be pigeon holed. I'm who I am, take it or leave it man.
Wow, these guys the Yardbirds are so good on 88rpm LP. You guys really should get into this, but if you do I'll make fun of you and jump to something else. I'm edgy and effortlessly cool.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Also, my understanding is that even the guys who don't want to move on, still have to go interview. So several of the "rejections" were guys who went to the interview, told the panel thanks but no thanks, and left.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Mainline doesn't have a say in what they do. They care about getting the planes moved from A to B. They don't care about quality, newhires, training, and sure as hell don't share accident responsibility. Hold harmless / indemnify.
A pilot is a pilot is a pilot is not true. A pilot is an individual, and like an individual, they are all different personalities.