Hot fuel.

Autothrust Blue said:
Just so that this "SJS kid" is abundantly clear, is the reason that you wouldn't do it that someone might see you, or that it is prohibited in your Operations Manual?
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naa, mostly joking. But I have hot fueled at a previous company. Common practice here, especially in northern MT crop dusting. Engine wont shut off all day long.

I notice the trend among pilots, if "I" didn't grow up doing it, then nobody should be doing it. If I trained this way, then everyone should train that way. For example, I did a lot of tailwheel and grass landings with one student, now that he is a CFI every one of his students learns on the grass while other CFI's just simulate it on pavement.

A good reason to practice safe procedures, not just for you, but for others who are watching! But we can also accept that not everyone will conform to our standards, so just bashing them online just does little to me.
 
I've seen crop dusters do it. Pilot hops and takes a break while it gets fueled up... It seems to be a regular practice for them to save on engine wear... I would never do it myself though...
 
Fly_Unity said:
naa, mostly joking. But I have hot fueled at a previous company. Common practice here, especially in northern MT crop dusting. Engine wont shut off all day long.

I notice the trend among pilots, if "I" didn't grow up doing it, then nobody should be doing it. If I trained this way, then everyone should train that way. For example, I did a lot of tailwheel and grass landings with one student, now that he is a CFI every one of his students learns on the grass while other CFI's just simulate it on pavement.

A good reason to practice safe procedures, not just for you, but for others who are watching! But we can also accept that not everyone will conform to our standards, so just bashing them online just does little to me.
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This is one of the better posts I've seen in a while. I agree wholeheartedly. I used to fly an airplane without an electrical system. I would be prepping to hand-prop and numerous times had people walk up and tell me that's dangerous and I shouldn't do it. I did my tailwheel endorsement in the airplane and was taught by one of the most safety-conscious pilots I've ever met. It's always interesting to see things from different perspectives.
 
Fly_Unity said:
naa, mostly joking. But I have hot fueled at a previous company. Common practice here, especially in northern MT crop dusting. Engine wont shut off all day long.

I notice the trend among pilots, if "I" didn't grow up doing it, then nobody should be doing it. If I trained this way, then everyone should train that way. For example, I did a lot of tailwheel and grass landings with one student, now that he is a CFI every one of his students learns on the grass while other CFI's just simulate it on pavement.

A good reason to practice safe procedures, not just for you, but for others who are watching! But we can also accept that not everyone will conform to our standards, so just bashing them online just does little to me.
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Sorry, this isn't a case of differing standards. Hot fueling a running wheelplane with no chocks or pilot is insane and unneccessary.
 
Fly_Unity said:
Common practice here, especially in northern MT crop dusting. Engine wont shut off all day long.
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Common practice in any agricultural operation. I've had days where I started the R-1340 at first light and finally pulled the mixture when it got too dark so see again. Hot fueled all day long, as well as check/add engine oil, eat, take restroom breaks, etc... all with that big radial purring away.

The thing is, we coordinated everything so the airplane was never unattended. Rule was the first indication something was abnormal, shut everything down and stop.
 
Or you could get run over by the aircraft you're PIC on when the FO gets out of his seat. It was a Lear 45.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Learjet 45, D-CNIK.pdf

"Synopsis

The aircraft was being prepared for departure to Paris. The commander was at the rear of the cabin and the co-plot was on the flight deck. The right engine was running in order to provde electrcal servces and air conditonI ng for the cabin. The engine power was inadvertently increased to 70% N1 and the aI rcraft moved forwards, unobserved by the co-pilot. Whilst moving forwards through the cabin, the commander fell from the open doorway. The outer part of the left wing struck a parked motor vehcle and the arcraft swung rapdly to the left, turning through 80o before comng to rest again aganst the side of the vehicle. The commander and a ramp handling agent were both struck by the aircraft and knocked to the ground. The commander was seriously injured."

And that's no where near hot fueling with no one in the cockpit and spinny things hanging out all over.
 
Fly_Unity said:
naa, mostly joking. But I have hot fueled at a previous company. Common practice here, especially in northern MT crop dusting. Engine wont shut off all day long.

I notice the trend among pilots, if "I" didn't grow up doing it, then nobody should be doing it. If I trained this way, then everyone should train that way. For example, I did a lot of tailwheel and grass landings with one student, now that he is a CFI every one of his students learns on the grass while other CFI's just simulate it on pavement.

A good reason to practice safe procedures, not just for you, but for others who are watching! But we can also accept that not everyone will conform to our standards, so just bashing them online just does little to me.
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True, but the other side of that coin is just because "we always did it this way," doesnt mean it was ever a smart thing to begin with. And a good constant review of anything that is the norm is always in order. It used to be the Norm to not do weight and balance. Now days we know what we know and thats suicidal.

Kinda like "You fancy kids and your fancy airbags and car seats. We got by just fine doing it before those... albeit with a higher fatality rate."
 
ctab5060X said:
Common practice in any agricultural operation. I've had days where I started the R-1340 at first light and finally pulled the mixture when it got too dark so see again. Hot fueled all day long, as well as check/add engine oil, eat, take restroom breaks, etc... all with that big radial purring away.

The thing is, we coordinated everything so the airplane was never unattended. Rule was the first indication something was abnormal, shut everything down and stop.
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What was the point of keeping it running?
 
Roger Roger said:
What was the point of keeping it running?
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Less wear and tear on engine and starter.

The engine on the AT-301 only had a speed ring, so the engine could be kept cool on the ground simply from the airflow generated by the prop. Additionally, we used another operators strip and facilities and shredding a starter because the engine kicked back during start meant we were not only grounded, but the other operator was shut down until we moved the airplane... that is fully loaded... sitting in the grass that is soft from the rain shower the night before... Add in that to load and fuel, most times I was stopped for about 5-10 minutes and it made not sense from an operational standpoint to shut down when we could load and refuel safely.

If we shut down every time we fueled or loaded (I would typically get fuel every second load) I would have been starting it back up about 10-15 times a day in an airplane that felt like it needed 3 hands and an act of congress to start.

However... the major reason to not shut it down -- I'm sitting in the seat with the doors closed and the air conditioner running full blast! :D
 
ctab5060X said:
Less wear and tear on engine and starter.

The engine on the AT-301 only had a speed ring, so the engine could be kept cool on the ground simply from the airflow generated by the prop. Additionally, we used another operators strip and facilities and shredding a starter because the engine kicked back during start meant we were not only grounded, but the other operator was shut down until we moved the airplane... that is fully loaded... sitting in the grass that is soft from the rain shower the night before... Add in that to load and fuel, most times I was stopped for about 5-10 minutes and it made not sense from an operational standpoint to shut down when we could load and refuel safely.

If we shut down every time we fueled or loaded (I would typically get fuel every second load) I would have been starting it back up about 10-15 times a day in an airplane that felt like it needed 3 hands and an act of congress to start.

However... the major reason to not shut it down -- I'm sitting in the seat with the doors closed and the air conditioner running full blast! :D
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Sounds like you needed a turbine. Though those have their share of issues with cycles. But 10-15 is often what we are putting on ours in a day so should handle it just fine.
 
On the turbine side doing 10/15 cycles a day for a season, you would go through the hot sections, starter/generators and batterys in no time flat. The other problem I seen is with the some of the Garrets is the battery wont fully charge in a short cycle! Its the cycles that wear down the engine more than the hours put on it. Perfectly safe for an operation to hot fuel if they have been trained, and have procedures in place to minimize the risk.
 
Roger Roger said:
Sounds like you needed a turbine. Though those have their share of issues with cycles. But 10-15 is often what we are putting on ours in a day so should handle it just fine.
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Couldn't justify the cost for a turbine at the time :)

A horizontally opposed engine takes to repeated starts and stops better than a radial, especially if shut down less than 5 minutes.

@Fly_Unity brings up a good point. 10-15 cycles per day (6 days a week unless you are behind) over the course of a season is a lot of unnecessary wear and tear on the engine and accessories. With the quickness of the ground time, there is no need to incur extra costs that are easily avoided by having a safe plan for the operation.

We also ran R-985s on our Be-18. Typical turn times were in the 15-20 minute range, so we would shut down.
 
Fly_Unity said:
On the turbine side doing 10/15 cycles a day for a season, you would go through the hot sections, starter/generators and batterys in no time flat. The other problem I seen is with the some of the Garrets is the battery wont fully charge in a short cycle! Its the cycles that wear down the engine more than the hours put on it. Perfectly safe for an operation to hot fuel if they have been trained, and have procedures in place to minimize the risk.
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How long are those 10-15 legs? Like 10 minutes each or closer to 20-30?
 
ctab5060X said:
Couldn't justify the cost for a turbine at the time :)

A horizontally opposed engine takes to repeated starts and stops better than a radial, especially if shut down less than 5 minutes.

@Fly_Unity brings up a good point. 10-15 cycles per day (6 days a week unless you are behind) over the course of a season is a lot of unnecessary wear and tear on the engine and accessories. With the quickness of the ground time, there is no need to incur extra costs that are easily avoided by having a safe plan for the operation.

We also ran R-985s on our Be-18. Typical turn times were in the 15-20 minute range, so we would shut down.
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Fair enough. Still a far cry from a lone guy with no precautions doing it in a 340 because he doesn't want to start again to taxi from the pumps.
 
Roger Roger said:
How long are those 10-15 legs? Like 10 minutes each or closer to 20-30?
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For agricultural ops, it depends on what you are doing that day.

Low volume work, you could have 30 minutes to an hour in the air. High volume or dry work, you might be out 10 minutes depending on how far you have to go from the strip.


Roger Roger said:
Fair enough. Still a far cry from a lone guy with no precautions doing it in a 340 because he doesn't want to start again to taxi from the pumps.
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Definitely. If I was working by myself (which occasionally I did early in the am), I would shut down without a second thought.
 
ctab5060X said:
For agricultural ops, it depends on what you are doing that day.

Low volume work, you could have 30 minutes to an hour in the air. High volume or dry work, you might be out 10 minutes depending on how far you have to go from the strip.




Definitely. If I was working by myself (which occasionally I did early in the am), I would shut down without a second thought.
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Actually sounds pretty similar on a legs per hour basis to what we do. Turbine does just fine. Our round motors run longer legs and longer turns though. Short distances but it takes a while to get anywhere in a beaver on floats.
 
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