CFIscare
Well-Known Member
What an ass.
AAG to Transfer Envoy CRJ-700s to PSA
- Thread starter J Cole
- Start date
What an ass.
MOONWOLF
Well-Known Member
SeanD
Well-Known Member
Translation:
Hell yeah bitches, we're getting a ton more planes. Im pretty sure we can staff them, but not too sure. Anyway, a lot of Envoy peeps are gonna get screwed, but don't worry, I'll talk to the Envoy ALPA dudes and invite their 7 year FOs who were less than a year away from upgrading on those 700s, to apply at PSA. First year pay isnt that bad and upgrades should only be about 3 years, maybe. One more thing, dont be Richards about this news because a lot of the Envoy folks hate us. In fact, its probably better you just dont say chit about it.
Im really sorry to hear this guys. I wish there was something I could do to help out. I'll keep my ear to the ground.
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BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Pay topping out at 12 years for captains (instead of 18) and 4 years for FOs (instead of 6 or 8).
Of course, somebody hired at PSA today won't ever see 4th year FO pay or 12 year captain pay so it kind of doesn't matter. That said, if things slow down again in the future for some reason (or PSA hadn't gotten the airplanes that were part of the deal to cap pay) it could have been problematic.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
Plenty are leaving XJT for PSA. There is a big difference between Endeavor and PSA when it comes to pilot demand. Endeavor is a large regional that is shrinking. PSA is/was a very small regional that is rapidly expanding. Possibility of street captains in 2015. They will have no problems at all recruiting pilots just like Compass and Mesa because they offer what most regional pilots desire, career progression.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
My understanding of the PSA "flow thru" language is 4 interviews a month, 48 a year. If PSA ends up with ~1200 pilots, after everything is said and done, it would take 25 years for the last guy on property to flow.
The deliciously ironic part of the equation is the very reason Eagle is so top heavy is because you've got guys waiting 15 years to flow to AA. Realistically, I'd think you'd have a better shot getting on at United or Delta than flowing to AA personally at that low rate. Can a PSA pilot even get a call at AA outside of the flow?
Sorry to the Eagle guys. They were always very professional on my commute. I picked them over my own company! Sorry doesn't buy airplanes or upgrades though and I'd encourage their F/Os to seek employment elsewhere, PSA, Mesa, Compass, etc. Play the game, upgrade, GTFO.
This is the name of the game as far as regionals go. I'm glad some members here made the seemingly difficult choice to GTFO and go someplace where they can upgrade fast and be done with it. I wouldn't be surprised to see Eagle close all their current bases and move halfway across the country to "incentivize" the rest of the senior guys to leave. It's bullcrap but the moral of the story is don't be a sub-contractor!
The deliciously ironic part of the equation is the very reason Eagle is so top heavy is because you've got guys waiting 15 years to flow to AA. Realistically, I'd think you'd have a better shot getting on at United or Delta than flowing to AA personally at that low rate. Can a PSA pilot even get a call at AA outside of the flow?
Sorry to the Eagle guys. They were always very professional on my commute. I picked them over my own company! Sorry doesn't buy airplanes or upgrades though and I'd encourage their F/Os to seek employment elsewhere, PSA, Mesa, Compass, etc. Play the game, upgrade, GTFO.
This is the name of the game as far as regionals go. I'm glad some members here made the seemingly difficult choice to GTFO and go someplace where they can upgrade fast and be done with it. I wouldn't be surprised to see Eagle close all their current bases and move halfway across the country to "incentivize" the rest of the senior guys to leave. It's bullcrap but the moral of the story is don't be a sub-contractor!
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CRJDriver
Well-Known Member
The go to PSA, Mesa, Compass, etc., upgrade and GTFO is lot easier said than done. There are folks out there that have put in 4+ yrs at Comair, and are currently 4 yrs in at Eagle and now they are suppose to jump to another regional AGAIN, take a huge hit on pay, benefits and QOL and start at the bottom of the barrel in hopes they will move up quickly and upgrade before the next regional becomes the next hot commodity.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Well...that sucks but they went to a stagnant (huge) commuter after spending so much time at Comair? Why? That is on them. Sucks, but that's life. If I were at Comair I would've gone to the commuter in growth mode with the fastest upgrade. Hell had they chosen Compass back then, they'd be close to flowing to DAL right now.
Either you play the game to win or stick your fingers in your ears and head below the sand and pretend the world isn't spinning.
The writing was on the wall at Comair, XJT, Eagle well before all this happened. Personally I'd put AWAC and SkyW in that camp as well. Things may turn out well there but I wouldn't put money on it.
roundout
VNAV monitor
As a generality, I am inclined to agree with you, except about flow (more on that in a minute). The regional as we know it appears to be a dying breed. Why else would the 3 biggest regionals be trying to lock their pilot groups in to long term "stable" contracts? So they have something to offer a mainline carrier who comes knocking on their door looking for regional lift. I must admit, I thought PSA would be having more problems staffing its flying than it appears to be, which is considerably more disheartening than if the flying was returning to mainline. However, it still appears that unless the major airlines have one last trick up their collective sleeve (single pilot airliner, anybody?) that the regionals will still whither and die in the next decade. With the charge being led by Delta bringing "regional" flying back to mainline with 717s and hiring going gangbusters, the direction we're headed appears clear. AA, as usual, is following Delta's lead and starting to bring regional flying back to the A319 and hiring 40 a month, too.
We hear "we have 9,000 resumes on file!" from the majors, but very few people seem to understand that it's the same 9,000 pilots applying for every single job out there. So yes, the fact that PSA and Mesa aren't having problems filling their classes right now is rather discouraging, but unless majors start hiring 1500 hour people straight out of flying school, I think everybody currently at a 121 carrier will be fine - you just have to understand that there's a few tough years left.
On the subject of a flow - I have one. My MEC traded a contract provision that if airframes leave property the pilots go with them for a flow to American Airlines. However, with weak language offering no timeframe, no hard numbers, this is fairly worthless. There are 2100 pilots who would flow ahead of me. At 20 a month, well, you do the math. I would hope that I could get on at Delta, Alaska or United before my flow to AA came up 10 years from now.
roundout
VNAV monitor
Actually, at Eagle, in 2010/2011 movement was rampant, upgrade was plummeting, hiring was in full swing, and it appeared that the decade-long logjam had finally broken in a big way. Nobody saw bankruptcy coming.
We see so often on this forum to bid QOL and not chase upgrade time. Personally, I chose an airline based on being able to live in base without moving because so many commuters preach "LIVE IN BASE, ESPECIALLY ON RESERVE." So yes, in hindsight, Compass would've been a wiser choice, as would've Horizon, XJT, Skywest, PSA (gag).
We did the best we could with the info we had at the time.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Wow that was some pretty strong contract language, and for sure kept the airplanes at Eagle. That is almost better than scope!
In 10 years you would've missed the vast majority of hiring at AA. There will be 6,000 guys hired between now and then...do whatever you can to GTFO ASAP.
ClarkGriswold
Non Nutritive Cereal Varnish Engineer
Wasn't it pretty publicized leading up to it? I certainly remember not being surprised.
roundout
VNAV monitor
It was stronger than what we have now.
You make my point for me on the flow. I could probably get hired faster through the front door, or at another airline. So that makes the flow worthless.
roundout
VNAV monitor
A year ahead of time? That's when I got hired. It would've been fairly clairvoyant to have predicted bankruptcy a year out, predicted how bankruptcy played out, and chosen to get on with another airline, commuted for 4 years, to be in a better position now. Things could have just as easily gone the other direction.
I'm not mad at Eagle. I've lived in base for my entire career, only spent 6 months on reserve, never had a paycheck bounce. There are some day-to-day mundane details that are frustrating, but I don't dwell on those because that's the case at any airline, even legacies. But now it's time to go. I'm too busy to play these games. My family deserves better.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
I remember reading a post on here about hiring 600 pilots that year, how amazing the career there was going to be, and I just rolled my eyes. You're never going to see quick upgrades at a 2500 pilot group. XJT, ASA, SkyW, Eagle, Republic. All the quick upgrades happened when they were themselves in growth mode.
ClarkGriswold
Non Nutritive Cereal Varnish Engineer
I can relate to that, Pinnacolaba filed for BK pretty much 1 year to the day after being hired. But with everyone else hiring I had my 2 weeks in almost a week later. Good luck with whatever you try to do though.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Good luck. I think there are opportunities out there but you need to move quickly (if staying in flying).
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
As an outsider to the 121 industry, I never understood the attraction of flow as bait for wanting to be hired at this airline or that for exactly the reason you point out. Such flow was going to only happen to such a small fraction of guys, and "everyone else" would just be going through the normal apply-interview hiring process.
I guess the same folks that get taken in by "guaranteed interview!!" ads for pilot mills also fall for flow in the contract.