Captain guards the yoke...

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Pachong said:
I actually just had this happen to me! I laughed out loud when I saw her do it when we had a bit of a crosswind on landing. I just let my flying do the talking though. Can't reason with someone that insecure. Funny thing was, she flew like crap herself. Apparently, she does this to everyone.
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Where do you work? PM if you want.
 
Gonzo said:
The story sounds like Ron, he gave me a ear full one day after being in our jumpseat becuase I turned off the FD on a nice day.
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Was he there in an official capacity doing line checks, or just riding for personal reasons? If he wasn't doing line checks, I'd tell him to close his pie hole.
 
ASpilot2be said:
I have had a Captain take the power levers from me. I was slowing down for entry into the pattern according to profile, and he shoved them back to cruise power saying we were in a hurry. Not a fan of Captains like that.
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That has to be one of the quickest ways to ruin good CRM. I've seen a few guys like that in my career so far and have been able to file it away in the "Don't do this when I upgrade" drawer.
 
Jimflyfast said:
Age is unrelated to childish characteristics ;)
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I like the avatar! :)

Now I have a shiny George Washington and his twin brother George Washington if you tell Dan I'm not a crappy pilot.
 
Cptnchia said:
Was he there in an official capacity doing line checks, or just riding for personal reasons? If he wasn't doing line checks, I'd tell him to close his pie hole.
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He was jumpseating, the guy likes to take • about FOs and low time guys. The thing is he was never a FO (1,000 sic) and was hired at 1,600 28 years ago.
 
MoMatt said:
I agree, there's definitely a difference between "guarding the yoke" and paying attention. The difference becomes pretty clear after a bunch of years of being a flight instructor - in the 172 you go through the "hands at the ready, flinching at each near-disaster" to "hands on your lap, flinching up quickly but somewhat more imperceptibly" to "you don't need to flinch because you've seen this 100 times before and could comfortably call for and take the controls if needed farther down the road".

Everyone goes through the same evolution as a captain (or fo) and it depends on how comfortable / uncomfortable you are in the airplane.
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You know, when I was a 1100 hour CFI I would have said the same thing but after flying another 1000 hours single pilot it was a bit of a jump for me to get back into that mindset when starting as a company instructor/IOE check airman. On a couple occasions I found myself doing stupid stuff like being on the controls when I shouldn't have, or not saying "my controls" and taking them when I should have. It didn't help that my first couple trainees were essentially 600 hour private pilots- I mean they had the commercial cert but had not really had flying jobs before.

All that I guess to say that those skills are perishable.

All this has little bearing in the OP though as anyone at eagle has at this point been there long enough that if either the captain isn't comfortable letting FOs fly or the FOs skill level is at a point where captains aren't comfortable letting them fly there is a real problem somewhere.
 
CaptBill said:
I'm hoping it's just a language or word issue but I can assure you that I am indeed responsible for any mistakes I make as a captain at a US Carrier. I do have a Union for resources, but they don't negate any irresponsibility on my part. And "smashing one on" to me means something different than a firm landing. I don't know you but you come across as a little holier than thou by saving every flight you operate by being this supreme instructor pilot. Again, I'm hoping that it's a communication issue because I can assure you that we US carrier pilots can hold our own against any foreign carrier out there. People make mistakes and it's the ones who recognize their own vulnerability that in actuality are the safest pilots out there. Without question , the most unsafe pilots I've flown with are check airman and instructor pilots who think they are much better than they are and who think they know more than they do.
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Maybe a little bit of both. I started the initial reply by saying I used to be the really relaxed guy, but circumstances dictated a change in attitude and style. When two captain upgrades on their final line check had serious landing issues and I wasn't near enough to the controls to change the outcome and then when seeing my colleagues get 6 months suspensions for not intervening in a timely manner my hands got a lot closer to the controls. It is what it is, which is why I said, "never say never".


Again, I'm hoping that it's a communication issue because I can assure you that we US carrier pilots can hold our own against any foreign carrier out there.
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Actually statistics would say that only about 70-80% of US airline pilots can hold their own against the standards of some foreign carriers. After you've operated with South Africans, Zimbabweans, Brits, Swedes, Germans, Aussies, Kiwis, and others for over a decade then you might change your thinking. It isn't good believing that you are the best because I can assure you the average American pilot does not reach the standard set at some of the others carriers in the world. That's not to say that some are not superior and that a lot of them can not, but on average an American going to EK really has to up his game to fit in.

Just some examples of American's that came to EK and the result:

DAL 737NG captain - came as first officer, failed upgrade (good friend of mine, now works in China)
DAL 767 F.O. - came as first officer, failed upgrade, bad attitude, finally the light came on and passed upgrade on second try two years after first attempt
DAL B777 captain - Came as B777 DEC. Major approach mistake (800 feet over the water 8 miles from the airport), demoted to F.O.. Unable to re-upgrade, quit, whereabouts unknown.
NWA first officer - came as first officer, failed two upgrade attempts, now permanent F.O.
NWA A330 captain - Came as B777 DEC. Demoted to F.O. for major approach mistake. Never able to re-upgrade, still an F.O.
NWA A330 captain - Came as B777 DEC. Failed every annual line check he ever took the first time. Failed numerous PCs. Had top cover from the VP of Ops ( also ex NWA ), but left after 7 years.
USAir A320 captain - Came as A330 DEC, failed initial training and terminated.
USAir B737 captain - came as F.O., failed upgrade on first attempt, passed on second try two years later.
AA (TWA) B767 F.O. - came as F.O., major approach mistake into Damascus on last flight before upgrade. Upgrade delayed two years. Captain of that flight was terminated.

Not really. Your story just confirms what so many of us believe about the atrocious safety cultures of many foreign carriers.
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Ehh, you might be taking what I am saying a little out of context. While I agree there is an element of the punitive culture that goes against a just safety culture, I would hope that you could agree that when pilots make mistakes they require re-training. When pilots can not reach the required standard, after a lot of training, they need to be returned to their original position or even terminated.


Typhoonpilot
 
Whats interesting about US vs. Foreign carriers to me is the ability to think outside the box. Here at SFO, I've noticed even the English speaking carriers(Air Canada, British, Virgin, Emirates and Cathay with English crews, ect) seem to get flustered very quickly when asked to do anything non-standard whereas the US pilots much more often have the "sure, we'll do it" attitude that keeps traffic flowing. Makes me wonder about the differences in training and company culture that create this mentality of seemingly never expecting to run into non-standard situations, specifically during taxi.
 
typhoonpilot said:
Maybe a little bit of both. I started the initial reply by saying I used to be the really relaxed guy, but circumstances dictated a change in attitude and style. When two captain upgrades on their final line check had serious landing issues and I wasn't near enough to the controls to change the outcome and then when seeing my colleagues get 6 months suspensions for not intervening in a timely manner my hands got a lot closer to the controls. It is what it is, which is why I said, "never say never".




Actually statistics would say that only about 70-80% of US airline pilots can hold their own against the standards of some foreign carriers. After you've operated with South Africans, Zimbabweans, Brits, Swedes, Germans, Aussies, Kiwis, and others for over a decade then you might change your thinking. It isn't good believing that you are the best because I can assure you the average American pilot does not reach the standard set at some of the others carriers in the world. That's not to say that some are not superior and that a lot of them can not, but on average an American going to EK really has to up his game to fit in.

Just some examples of American's that came to EK and the result:

DAL 737NG captain - came as first officer, failed upgrade (good friend of mine, now works in China)
DAL 767 F.O. - came as first officer, failed upgrade, bad attitude, finally the light came on and passed upgrade on second try two years after first attempt
DAL B777 captain - Came as B777 DEC. Major approach mistake (800 feet over the water 8 miles from the airport), demoted to F.O.. Unable to re-upgrade, quit, whereabouts unknown.
NWA first officer - came as first officer, failed two upgrade attempts, now permanent F.O.
NWA A330 captain - Came as B777 DEC. Demoted to F.O. for major approach mistake. Never able to re-upgrade, still an F.O.
NWA A330 captain - Came as B777 DEC. Failed every annual line check he ever took the first time. Failed numerous PCs. Had top cover from the VP of Ops ( also ex NWA ), but left after 7 years.
USAir A320 captain - Came as A330 DEC, failed initial training and terminated.
USAir B737 captain - came as F.O., failed upgrade on first attempt, passed on second try two years later.
AA (TWA) B767 F.O. - came as F.O., major approach mistake into Damascus on last flight before upgrade. Upgrade delayed two years. Captain of that flight was terminated.



Ehh, you might be taking what I am saying a little out of context. While I agree there is an element of the punitive culture that goes against a just safety culture, I would hope that you could agree that when pilots make mistakes they require re-training. When pilots can not reach the required standard, after a lot of training, they need to be returned to their original position or even terminated.


Typhoonpilot
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Being that US carriers enjoy some of the best safety records in the world, is there a possibility the training failures had to do with a poor training philosophy?
 
Boris Badenov said:
Yeah hmm, I dunno, that number of punitive actions against American pilots could be taken as evidence of any number of things...some more about the "American" than the "pilot".
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Definitely not anti-American in these cases. Punitive actions against other nationalities as well, just did not seem to be as high a percentage of them making such mistakes.

TP
 
ASpilot2be said:
I have had a Captain take the power levers from me. I was slowing down for entry into the pattern according to profile, and he shoved them back to cruise power saying we were in a hurry. Not a fan of Captains like that.
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I wouldn't just up and take over unless an incident/accident were imminent... I'll tell they other guy "Hey the 737 behind us is going to eat our lunch if you don't keep the power up." Taking over like that is a bush league move IMO.
 
turbojet28 said:
That has to be one of the quickest ways to ruin good CRM. I've seen a few guys like that in my career so far and have been able to file it away in the "Don't do this when I upgrade" drawer.
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Exactly. He was a super cool guy, but I dont think he had ever flown much in a crew environment.

Avalon781ML said:
I wouldn't just up and take over unless an incident/accident were imminent... I'll tell they other guy "Hey the 737 behind us is going to eat our lunch if you don't keep the power up." Taking over like that is a bush league move IMO.
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Yep. Most people would give little hints like that. I am far from perfect, so sometime little hints are appreciated.
 
I've done stuff like that with new/inexperienced pilots but the circumstances were different... No autopilot, hard IMC, less than 500TT in the other seat. Plus it's a pretty good tell when you shoot an approach to only like 700ft with 3sm vis and a little rain and turbulence and you look over to see the other guy sheet white and eyes bulging out of his head.
 
dasleben said:
Being that US carriers enjoy some of the best safety records in the world, is there a possibility the training failures had to do with a poor training philosophy?
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No doubt U.S. carriers rank high in safety statistics. It is not just statistics that we are looking at though. Marginally competent pilots can safely fly from A to B most of the time. Knock wood, but EK has a zero fatality rate in 25 years of operation. That's pretty safe, wouldn't you agree?

What is one of the themes that seems to occur in a number of the U.S. incidents and accidents? The recent SWA landing incident in LGA. Known marginally competent captain, right? The USAir 737 accident in LGA, also a known marginally competent captain. Is it good that in the U.S. airlines known marginally competent captains are able to slip through the cracks?

I think this goes a little towards the pussification of America. Kids in school getting a ribbon for 29th place. That's just telling them that mediocrity is okay, no need to strive to be better. Mediocre pilots passing their training and thinking they are really good because they fly for a major U.S. airline with a good safety record, when in reality they are not that good. No incentive to strive to be better, just resting on their laurels and thinking they are great. Something happens and they change venues only to find out they aren't that great after all.


Typhoonpilot
 
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