Captain guards the yoke...
- Thread starter ZapBrannigan
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Jimflyfast
lurker first class
Do YOU want to be the one to tell him that he's not actually flying, you monster? I didn't think so.
I should add that he tried to eat the thrust reversers shortly after this was taken.
@CK, we need to talk about your children....
DPApilot
GUYSH! GUYSH! GUYSH!
Exactly what I was thinking.
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
These things are not necessarily related, either.
Flying or monitoring, I keep my seat set so I can get full travel on the rudder and the rest of the controls. (I mean, it's not that hard in what I fly, but it's prudent to do it for those reasons.)
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
HIS children. I'm old enough to be his Dad. If, you know, I'd had him when I was 12. As circumstance has it, I was busy with a very intricate and special Dungeons and Dragons Campaign....luckily for posterily!
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
This. I've had a captains seat slide all the way back on rotation. If I wasn't where I should have been it could have ended poorly.
typhoonpilot
Well-Known Member
While I agree in principle, the practical reality is: never say never.
There are some airplanes and some situations where an instructor, for example, might want to have his hands very close to the controls if not lightly touching because the required time to react to a student mistake is just too small otherwise.
Please understand once upon a time I was the CFI who was comfortable letting a student pilot get over the edge of the runway in the flare before taking over.
If you ever fly the B777 there is a window of only ten feet where the pilot flares and lands nicely or doesn't flare and is going to crunch it onto the runway hard landing style. There is just not enough time to issue a voice command to flare and expect the reaction time of the PF will be fast enough. A quick nudge of the yoke is the only thing that will save a possible hard landing (and resultant maintenance downtime).
At my previous company they started penalizing the instructors for not intervening and letting things like hard landing, tailstrikes, and unnecessary missed approaches occur. Usually a six month loss of position and instructor override. Cost a number guys $18,000 in lost earnings for that penalty. At my current gig I fully expect if I were to let a hard landing occur when with a student that I would be terminated. That is the commercial and financial reality of operating widebody aircraft.
For those reasons my hands tend to be very close to the yoke during landing when with regular students and lightly touching when with cadet pilots. All that is explained to the student so they know the reason and that they are still expected to do 100% of the flying.
Typhoonpilot
falconvalley
Absentee Dad of the OOTSK, Runner, Cat Frustrator
I had a captain joke about "boxing" my control movements once. I would expect that to lead to laughter anywhere in the 121 world. I guess I haven't been around enough!
MoMatt
Well-Known Member
I agree, there's definitely a difference between "guarding the yoke" and paying attention. The difference becomes pretty clear after a bunch of years of being a flight instructor - in the 172 you go through the "hands at the ready, flinching at each near-disaster" to "hands on your lap, flinching up quickly but somewhat more imperceptibly" to "you don't need to flinch because you've seen this 100 times before and could comfortably call for and take the controls if needed farther down the road".
Everyone goes through the same evolution as a captain (or fo) and it depends on how comfortable / uncomfortable you are in the airplane.
CaptBill
Well-Known Member
I never say never - ever, except in my above post - my bad. I have flown wide body airplanes and they are no more susceptible to hard landings than a 727 or a 737-900. I don't fly with students so I guess my daily experiences are somewhat different than yours. You didn't post anything I have an issue with and I realize that your technique is your technique. Just a sidenote: Hard landings, more like firm, are a hit and miss thing. 80 percent of my landings are average, 15 percent are what I would consider pretty good and the other 5 percent verify my Navy roots. How can you get fired for allowing a student / FO etc... for making a hard landing? Personally, I've never known anybody who has never had one. I'm not talking about a "break the tail off" hard landing but just a good firm ka-boom landing. What do you say, hard landings are not allowed? Tail strikes and aircraft damage are different animals and that is why my hands and feet are always at the ready but not to the point that I am annoying to the FO, who may actually be just as good, if not a better pilot than me.
typhoonpilot
Well-Known Member
Not sure about that. I have a lot of time in the 737 and DC-9/MD-80 series and have seen nowhere near the number of near hard landings that I have seen in the B777.
Welcome to my world. There is much less forgiveness in the world outside of major U.S. carriers. Pilots are responsible for their mistakes and not protected by unions. Good in many respects, but bad in others.
Agreed, everyone had smashed one on at some point. It's just there is a different level of tolerance to mistakes at some carriers. It costs a lot of money to delay/cancel a widebody fight. In my present gig, one of the reasons I'm there, is to prevent that from happening. If I fail in that duty then it could cost me my job. It would certainly cause some loss of face for my employer. That all said, if there were extenuating circumstances, like windshear, downdraft, etc not a major problem. If it was just due to a loss of situational awareness or late intervention by the instructor (me) then one has to accept the consequences.
Agreed.
TP
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
I think he meant hard landings like "write it up and get mx to do the hard landing inspection checklist" hard landings not just "hide in the front office and make the FO say goodbye to the pax" hard landings.
typhoonpilot
Well-Known Member
Correct, that is what I meant. Hard landing being at/over 600FPM at touchdown which would require a maintenance inspection.
TP
Old Dominion Flyer
Well-Known Member
or when they apply the brakes to stop as directed by a marshaller. Btw, those guys can move faster than they let on.
Springer
Well-Known Member
Thread drift but since you brought it up right after lift off ATC says "turn left to 270." FO dials it into the altitude capture box but then quickly catches her mistake puts it correctly in the heading box. She is flustered but to make her feel better I jokingly say "I have never done that." She hears the word "that" thinking I said "flap" and raises them prematurely while I am way below Zflap.
I should have known better not to have said anything. Fortunately you can't stall an Airbus.
Cptnchia
Dissatisfied Customer
TP,
Might the number of hard landings in the 777 have something to due with the caliber of pilot flying it? How much total flying experience do these new pilots have you fly with as opposed to 777 OE pilots at a US legacy who are still very senior pilots. In fact, at Delta, every 777 FO can easily hold a senior NB captain seat. In fact, many of them were and downbid to the right seat.
Might the number of hard landings in the 777 have something to due with the caliber of pilot flying it? How much total flying experience do these new pilots have you fly with as opposed to 777 OE pilots at a US legacy who are still very senior pilots. In fact, at Delta, every 777 FO can easily hold a senior NB captain seat. In fact, many of them were and downbid to the right seat.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
That sounds like one of the first stories in Fate is the Hunter.
typhoonpilot
Well-Known Member
The two worst landings I have seen in a B777 were Captain upgrade candidates on their final line check. So minimum of 6000 hours total time and 4000 jet. So not the most inexperience of pilots. One had the mitigating circumstance of landing on 24R at MAN where there is a nasty hump in the touchdown zone. Both of those I let go longer than I normally would for two reasons. One, it was a captain upgrade and he'd made it that far with no or minimal problems so I was a little more relaxed, and two if I intervene it is an immediate fail.
But the point is valid. There were a lot of mistakes made at my former carrier due to the inexperience of the pilots and/or the instructor. Fortunately most of them were just the firm/hard landing category. The typical new hire would have a minimum of 2500 hours jet, usually a lot more. The cadets, on the other hand, were at less than 300 total time when starting line training. They get 128 sectors of line training. Policy became that any instructor intervention on landing required a trip back to the sim. That happened a lot with cadets.
TP
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