Kingairer
'Tiger Team' Member
Both the original post and this one have one thing in common. Its the list snip by the pilot "just needed a little help", or "playing games".
Rude ATC
- Thread starter Zidac
- Start date
Both the original post and this one have one thing in common. Its the list snip by the pilot "just needed a little help", or "playing games".
jwp_145
GhostRider in the Sky
"Lets play a game of "Who has who's job because of who?"
Seggy
Well-Known Member
I care. You (we all) should as well.
Cal Goat
Prestige Worldwide™
It's a 2 way street. I'd say that the SNA controller has the moral high ground because he deals with professionals most of his day. I've heard way too many Joe Privates in my day pop on frequency and ask for flight following or a vector when it just wasn't necessary.
You fly in busy airspace- you need to come prepared. I wouldn't check on frequency expecting a controller to hold my hand because I know I'm not the only airplane he's helping. As pilots (professional or other), we owe to these professionals to come into their airspace as prepared as possible. There are several reasons for this, but primarily I'd argue that we should be as reliant on ourselves (as pilots) as much as possible to alleviate as much outside responsibility as possible.
I've heard plenty of controllers lose it on freq. But I get it. They deal with a huge variation in talent and professionalism. You hate to see them drop the ball, but then you have to be able to sympathize with their situation as well.
You fly in busy airspace- you need to come prepared. I wouldn't check on frequency expecting a controller to hold my hand because I know I'm not the only airplane he's helping. As pilots (professional or other), we owe to these professionals to come into their airspace as prepared as possible. There are several reasons for this, but primarily I'd argue that we should be as reliant on ourselves (as pilots) as much as possible to alleviate as much outside responsibility as possible.
I've heard plenty of controllers lose it on freq. But I get it. They deal with a huge variation in talent and professionalism. You hate to see them drop the ball, but then you have to be able to sympathize with their situation as well.
Similar except there are airplanes every five miles from dirty to North Carolina crossing dirty at 310 so the speed differences could've been much worse than 220 v 250.
So you wouldn't slow sooner and have 40 knots plus less than the other guys to turn off 4-5000 feet down the runway versus rolling to the end to save a few minutes? I just always figured that was the reason they slow so much.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
No. We all fly similar approach speeds once configured. Like @Screaming_Emu said, it's weight dependent. Company culture or "Screw this, I'm tired, flaps 5" is probably the reason.
Nick
Well-Known Member
Robert,
I'm reading your post and interpreting it as a connection between an airplane's speed at, say, a 3 mile final correlating to where they will turn off the runway.
This is not the case; speed over the end of the runway itself is the only thing that will effect that, other than braking once on the ground of course.
Nick
Well-Known Member
Here is another example of what I would consider rude ATC by the controller assuming he has to be correct.
He very clearly says one-eight-zero and then berates the pilot and even goes so far as to say "where in god's name are you going???" And then schools them on readbacks and such, when he was completely in the wrong.
Occasionally reviewing ATC tapes as part of my airline's ASAP event review committee has provided real incentive for the way I use the radio.
Nothing extra, no weird "seeyas", no remarks to other A/C, and no replies if they make remarks to us. I don't think any of that translates into being a hard-azz to fly with, just that there ought to be as much open radio time as possible with little extra, and if something does go wrong and the tapes are pulled, for crying out loud, you do not need to sound like a doofus on the playback as your FSDO's FAA rep listens and tries to figure out what was actually said.
A few months ago a plane behind me said "thanks for the strobes" as I lined up on runway 13 at LGA at night in low IFR rainy conditions. We've got fog, water breaking on the rocks that make up the edge of the runway, it's dark out, people's windows have glare and water all over them, and as usual the field is in it's perpetual intersecting ops configuration. If my book says to turn on the strobes on takeoff, they're going on -- look right at them if you want, just like you can stare right at the sun on a nice day. If that "thanks for the strobes" blocked a tower transmission that was something important, like stopping an impending incursion etc., I really would not want to attempt to defend the need to say that to the plane taking the runway.
He very clearly says one-eight-zero and then berates the pilot and even goes so far as to say "where in god's name are you going???" And then schools them on readbacks and such, when he was completely in the wrong.
Occasionally reviewing ATC tapes as part of my airline's ASAP event review committee has provided real incentive for the way I use the radio.
Nothing extra, no weird "seeyas", no remarks to other A/C, and no replies if they make remarks to us. I don't think any of that translates into being a hard-azz to fly with, just that there ought to be as much open radio time as possible with little extra, and if something does go wrong and the tapes are pulled, for crying out loud, you do not need to sound like a doofus on the playback as your FSDO's FAA rep listens and tries to figure out what was actually said.
A few months ago a plane behind me said "thanks for the strobes" as I lined up on runway 13 at LGA at night in low IFR rainy conditions. We've got fog, water breaking on the rocks that make up the edge of the runway, it's dark out, people's windows have glare and water all over them, and as usual the field is in it's perpetual intersecting ops configuration. If my book says to turn on the strobes on takeoff, they're going on -- look right at them if you want, just like you can stare right at the sun on a nice day. If that "thanks for the strobes" blocked a tower transmission that was something important, like stopping an impending incursion etc., I really would not want to attempt to defend the need to say that to the plane taking the runway.
Autothrust Blue
“If you jump on my shift, that’s just rude, man.”
I feel like I should give a half-hearted defense of general aviation here. I'm not going to bother. Suffice to say, nobody owns the skies. Especially you, United.
"I'm tired. Base leg? Slow that beezy down. Flaps one five, speed 140!"No. We all fly similar approach speeds once configured. Like @Screaming_Emu said, it's weight dependent. Company culture or "Screw this, I'm tired, flaps 5" is probably the reason.
gotWXdagain
Polished Member
Not to completely derail the thread but your ops manual doesn't give pilot's discretion when visibility is crap and the strobes are more disorienting than helpful?
genot
Well-Known Member
I don't look at pilots as customers to be kept happy at all costs. I never have and I never will, because that is a self defeating mantra to have as a controller. My focus as a controller is primarily helping out any person(s) in distress followed by safety and efficiency. I absolutely bend over backwards to apologize (time permitting) if I give a crap vector or can't approve a request.
On the other hand, if a pilot bones something up big time, or is absolutely clueless, I have no qualms about letting them know. Believe me, each and every time I've been a jerk on frequency was preceded by either watching on in horror as a pilot is breaking separation by ignoring either the FARs or myself, or a pilot being unnecessarily nasty with me. In regards to the former, watching two planes wired for each other tends to get ones heart racing and ones ire raised. I'm human and I can't restrain my anger on every occasion. In the latter, the best example is I was once asked for my phone number on initial contact. An airline pilot was unhappy with a speed reduction to 250 at 11,000 as assigned by center as published on the STAR. Long story short he was 7 behind a critical Life Guard capable of 240 max and boy was he mad. Even after I explained the situation calmly he was still irate. I probably shouldn't have told him to proceed direct at 10,000 at 350 or greater and to expect further decent 10 miles from the field, but I did.
On the other hand, if a pilot bones something up big time, or is absolutely clueless, I have no qualms about letting them know. Believe me, each and every time I've been a jerk on frequency was preceded by either watching on in horror as a pilot is breaking separation by ignoring either the FARs or myself, or a pilot being unnecessarily nasty with me. In regards to the former, watching two planes wired for each other tends to get ones heart racing and ones ire raised. I'm human and I can't restrain my anger on every occasion. In the latter, the best example is I was once asked for my phone number on initial contact. An airline pilot was unhappy with a speed reduction to 250 at 11,000 as assigned by center as published on the STAR. Long story short he was 7 behind a critical Life Guard capable of 240 max and boy was he mad. Even after I explained the situation calmly he was still irate. I probably shouldn't have told him to proceed direct at 10,000 at 350 or greater and to expect further decent 10 miles from the field, but I did.
Nick
Well-Known Member
No discretion.
Do you think they should stay off when departing through an intersecting runway in the dark in low IFR?
Someone is gonna break out with about 15 seconds 'til touchdown on 22 with someone rolling through departing 13, I think it's nice to clearly see that airplane if you are the one on final.
The one taxiing in line for takeoff can look away, or look down at their panties, which are all bunched up.
gotWXdagain
Polished Member
That's weird that you guys don't get discretion, not knocking you for it or anything. Busy intersecting runways can be a tough one, cause if they come on and the guy behind you gets caught off guard, you knock out his night vision or worse, which creates a hazard, but if you leave them off, the guy approaching the intersecting runway doesn't get to see the traffic they just heard get a takeoff clearance, which also creates a hazard. Anyway,
/derailment.
Nick
Well-Known Member
There's discretion for turning them off in IMC but I don't take it to mean that they shouldn't be on when you are rolling down the runway through an intersection, just because someone on the parallel taxiway wants to look right at your plane's wingtip for no reason. They're not really blinding unless one stares right at it, and even then, not that bad.
Autothrust Blue
“If you jump on my shift, that’s just rude, man.”
Just to be the difficult devil's advocate: Forget the ops manual, Part 91 gives you that discretion.
(Nothing neither way, @Nick)
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
