What's the Point of a Union at (Regional/Major/Etc.)

[MikeD]

Technically, yes, you need a union to adhere to the Advisory Circular.

"appropriate third party, such as..."

means, only a union?

I'm not seeing where "appropriate third party", means only one, singular choice. I read it as labor organization being one of different types of third party entities that meet the intent of that section. Otherwise, if a union is the only way to adhere to the AC, then the AC....as written.....is stated in a vague and open-ended manner by the FAA. I would think they'd tighten that up a bit so as to be more specific?

That said, I can understand that a labor union would commonly be the accepted third party entity, merely because of it's position. That would make sense.

 

[SteveC]

"Per the Advisory Circular it technically isn't a FOQA or ASAP program without a union."
"I know you don't need a union or CBA to have a FOQA or ASAP Program."
"you need a union to adhere to the Advisory Circular"
"You can have a ASAP or FOQA program without a union"


I'm getting dizzy here. Can someone help me out?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

It's really not that complicated, because there's no such thing as a third party without a labor union. Anything else is just a sham, because it isn't a legal entity.

 

[Seggy]

"appropriate third party, such as..."

means, only a union?

I'm not seeing where "appropriate third party", means only one, singular choice. I read it as labor organization being one of different types of third party entities that meet the intent of that section. Otherwise, if a union is the only way to adhere to the AC, then the AC....as written.....is stated in a vague and open-ended manner by the FAA. I would think they'd tighten that up a bit so as to be more specific?

It is in the definitions where they spell it out a little further....

m. Party/Parties. Refers to the certificate holder, the FAA, and any other person or entity (e.g., labor union or other industry or Government entity) that is a signatory to the MOU.

 

[Seggy]

"Per the Advisory Circular it technically isn't a FOQA or ASAP program without a union."
"I know you don't need a union or CBA to have a FOQA or ASAP Program."
"you need a union to adhere to the Advisory Circular"
"You can have a ASAP or FOQA program without a union"


I'm getting dizzy here. Can someone help me out?

Here...

You can have an ASAP program but it isn't in full compliance with the Advisory Circular unless you have a union on property.

 

[MikeD]

It's really not that complicated, because there's no such thing as a third party without a labor union. Anything else is just a sham, because it isn't a legal entity.

You'd think the FAA would be a little more specific in this case, and not leave any open endedness, if this is the case. Even in their terminology. Otherwise, it's the feds playing some kind of worthless legalese.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

You'd think the FAA would be a little more specific in this case, and not leave any open endedness, if this is the case. Even in their terminology. Otherwise, it's the feds playing some kind of worthless legalese.

The FAA isn't the NMB. They don't deal with questions of labor law, and we all know that government agencies don't talk to each other. So rather than getting involved in what is or isn't a legal entity, they just throw some nebulous language about a third party into the MOU. In reality, there is no such thing as a third party without a labor union, because nothing but a labor union can legally represent an entire group of employees. Anything else is a sham. We frequently refer to them as "student councils."

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

The FAA isn't the NMB. They don't deal with questions of labor law, and we all know that government agencies don't talk to each other. So rather than getting involved in what is or isn't a legal entity, they just throw some nebulous language about a third party into the MOU. In reality, there is no such thing as a third party without a labor union, because nothing but a labor union can legally represent an entire group of employees. Anything else is a sham. We frequently refer to them as "student councils."

And we frequently refer to guys like you and Seggy as "Unionistas." What's your point?

 

[Seggy]

Wow, so angry.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Everyone with an IQ over 90 knows what the point is, Mr. Philosophizer.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

Wow, so angry.

I'm not angry. I just get tired of the never ending rhetoric. We get it. Unless you are collecting dues, you aren't happy.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

Everyone with an IQ over 90 knows what the point is, Mr. Philosophizer.

My point is that we all have names we throw around, but they aren't productive.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

My point is that we all have names we throw around, but they aren't productive.

It's not a "name," it's a descriptive term. They have no legal standing, no authority, no "teeth," no nothing. They're fake entities that managements tolerate (or even create) in order to keep a real legal entity off of the property.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

It's not a "name," it's a descriptive term. They have no legal standing, no authority, no "teeth," no nothing. They're fake entities that managements tolerate (or even create) in order to keep a real legal entity off of the property.

They have as much authority as the legal agreement written to create them.

(Some more than others.)

 

[Bumblebee]

They have as much authority as the legal agreement written to create them.

(Some more than others.)

which can be changed unilaterally…

let's not get off subject.

You can and do have airlines with out a union with an organization acting as a third party, (which would meet the criteria for the program) with separation of data taking the place of a union for FOQA, HIMS, PROSTANS. Is it optimal, no but does it exist,yes. So this

I stand by what I said...

Per the Advisory Circular it technically isn't a FOQA or ASAP program without a union.

statement was incorrect.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Technically, yes, you need a union to adhere to the Advisory Circular.
.

No you do not. You are taking your interpretation.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

It's not a "name," it's a descriptive term. They have no legal standing, no authority, no "teeth," no nothing. They're fake entities that managements tolerate (or even create) in order to keep a real legal entity off of the property.

Everyone knows how far your ALPA teeth got you with SWAPA. You can drop the pretense...

Seggy, I'm sure you know "eg" means for example. As in, that's one example of an entity. Not the sole example.

I doubt it. By engaging him instead of ignoring him, you just give him a platform from which to spread his BS. The "lurkers" think he has valid points because they don't have the experience to know better. If everyone ignored him, he would go away and his nonsense wouldn't spread any longer.

What I wrote represents one side that you clearly disagree with. Let others decide for themselves, they don't need a self-appointed union God to tell them what to think.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

They have as much authority as the legal agreement written to create them.

(Some more than others.)

There is no such thing as a legal agreement to create a non-legal entity. Sorry.

 

[WestIndian425]

Not playing sides here, but I decided to get an official definition for the word "entity", since this appears to be a target for debate. The following is from Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

en·ti·ty

noun \ˈen-tə-tē, ˈe-nə-\
: something that exists by itself : something that is separate from other things

plural en·ti·ties
1 a : being, existence; especially : independent, separate, or self-contained existence b : the existence of a thing as contrasted with its attributes
2 : something that has separate and distinct existence and objective or conceptual reality
3 : an organization (as a business or governmental unit) that has an identity separate from those of its members

Synonyms
being, commodity, existent, individual, individuality,integer, object, reality, something, substance, thing

By that definition, both an individual and an organization are entities.

Gotta love "lawyer talk" when it comes to the rules and regulations of our beloved United States. (No offense @jtrain609 cause I know you da man! )

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

There is no such thing as a legal agreement to create a non-legal entity. Sorry.

Two entities can have a legal agreement between them. The company and I have a legal agreement. And our PVC (thankfully) does not speak for me. I do. I prefer that. I don't want you, or ALPA, or anyone else, speaking for me.

The PVC is there to work with management, and provide guidance, but ultimately my voice is my own. I prefer that greatly to a union. Greatly.

I need to stay off of here until after the vote. Every time I read your posts it makes me want to vote no. I do not want your kind involved in my career, and man do you make me want to vote no.