What's the Point of a Union at (Regional/Major/Etc.)

ComplexHiAv8r said:
So you dont need a union? Was going to ask about SKW.
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I don't know if you are trying to be cute or funny but I'll give you an example. A few years ago right after the CJC crash we got several phone calls from people involved with SAPA, the SkyWest "bargaining agent", regarding potential use of FOQA data for disciplinary issues. Several people at CJC, who are also members on this board, helped them dig through the advisory circular and alert the FAA of this potential data violation. These are the things you try and avoid. The same goes for the ASAP program. If you don't have complete trust from the pilot group your ASAP program is garbage. Most management teams worth their salt understand this and don't take lightly to people abusing the information.
 
Seggy said:
In order to comply with the FAA guidance in the MOU you need a collective bargaining representative to serve as the gatekeeper of information. If you don't have that, the company can go after the pilots which defeats the purpose of these programs.

Even @PhilosopherPilot who I vehemently disagree with on about everything, agrees, a certified union ONLY fills that role.
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We have pilot gatekeepers at our company and never in our history has the company EVER gone after pilots for any event.

Per the MOU, FAA Guidance and best practices it should be a union.
Companies have ASAP and FOQA programs that aren't unionized but the FAA hates that.
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The FAA doesn't "hate that." Our relationship with the FAA is quite good, and our programs have done well.

So you dont need a union? Was going to ask about SKW.
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Correct, you do not need a union. Our company has a robust ASAP and FOQA program complete with pilot gatekeepers and never has there been a case where an ASAP/FOQA event was used to hang a pilot to dry.

I'm not really familiar with airline ASAP or FOQA MOU. Anybody mind explaining for me why they are exclusive to a union shop?
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They are not exclusive to union shops. Pro-union die hards like Seggy and ATN Pilot would like you to believe otherwise.
 
Seggy said:
In order to comply with the FAA guidance in the MOU you need a collective bargaining representative to serve as the gatekeeper of information. If you don't have that, the company can go after the pilots which defeats the purpose of these programs.

Even @PhilosopherPilot who I vehemently disagree with on about everything, agrees, a certified union ONLY fills that role.
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B. Aviation Safety Action Program (ASAP)
1. The Aviation Safety Action Program (ASAP) is a voluntary safety program available to pilots as a tool to report any information related to safety, hazard identification, or known or perceived non-compliances with federal regulations. The program is bound by a signatory document identified as the Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) whereby the company, the pilots, and the FAA have agreed to the terms and conditions that apply to the program.


We are all bound by the MOU.
 
amorris311 said:
I don't know if you are trying to be cute or funny but I'll give you an example. A few years ago right after the CJC crash we got several phone calls from people involved with SAPA, the SkyWest "bargaining agent", regarding potential use of FOQA data for disciplinary issues. Several people at CJC, who are also members on this board, helped them dig through the advisory circular and alert the FAA of this potential data violation. These are the things you try and avoid. The same goes for the ASAP program. If you don't have complete trust from the pilot group your ASAP program is garbage. Most management teams worth their salt understand this and don't take lightly to people abusing the information.
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FYI. I was serious because my first thought was the XJT to SKW to this issue. That and Seggy first saying it was to be and then the FAA wouldn't like it if not union. Thanks for the info. I might be talking to a non union group shortly. 8(
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Wow, stay classy.
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I think Cptnchia is just being realistic.

Eventually, some event is going to happen at every carrier. It's just a matter of statistical probability. Hopefully it never happens but eventually things do, be it an overrun, landing at the wrong airport, evacuation gone wrong, the list goes on.

If you'd like another dissenting opinion to ignore, I'm the safety chairman of my airline's union and I just have to laugh at the simplicity of some of your responses on this topic.

Until an airline has an event that truly tests the program, you have no idea how it is going to work. History is not at all on the side that you've chosen to defend, though.
 
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Nick said:
I think Cptnchia is just being realistic.

Eventually, some event is going to happen at every carrier. It's just a matter of statistical probability. Hopefully it never happens but eventually things do, be it an overrun, landing at the wrong airport, evacuation gone wrong, the list goes on.

If you'd like another dissenting opinion to ignore, I'm the safety chairman of my airline's union and I just have to laugh at the simplicity of some of your responses on this topic.

Until an airline has an event that truly tests the program, you have no idea how it is going to work. History is not at all on the side that you've chosen to defend, though.
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I use incidents and accidents as evidence. ASAP will protect a pilot but only to a certain limit. Willful negligence that ends up hurting people will get a pilot fired regardless of union or not. Look at SWA's hard landing gear collapse at LGA. The FO was retrained and that was that, but the CA was outright fired. Not even SWAPA will get her job back. In fact, it seems SWAPA is fine with the firing.

If one seriously bends metal and/or kill people, a FOQA/ASAP would be the last thing on mind. I also don't know what 'managamous' is. It's not in the dictionary.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I use incidents and accidents as evidence. ASAP will protect a pilot but only to a certain limit. Willful negligence that ends up hurting people will get a pilot fired regardless of union or not. Look at SWA's hard landing gear collapse at LGA. The FO was retrained and that was that, but the CA was outright fired. Not even SWAPA will get her job back. In fact, it seems SWAPA is fine with the firing.

If one seriously bends metal and/or kill people, a FOQA/ASAP would be the last thing on mind. I also don't know what 'managamous' is. It's not in the dictionary.
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You still missed the point @Nick made.

Your example of the SWA flight into LGA shows how little you actually know about what happened during the investigation. I on the other hand know someone personally involved (think representation) on the SWAPA side and there was a laundry list of things that went into the decision to keep and let go the pilots.
 
amorris311 said:
You still missed the point @Nick made.

Your example of the SWA flight into LGA shows how little you actually know about what happened during the investigation. I on the other hand know someone personally involved (think representation) on the SWAPA side and there was a laundry list of things that went into the decision to keep and let go the pilots.
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There is no final report on that incident. I would like to see it when it comes out. "What happened during the investigation." Chief, there is no report out yet. Are you implying someone inside SWAPA who is supposed to protect confidential information regarding an accident just happened to call you and share this information regarding the LGA Captain?
 
ComplexHiAv8r said:
FYI. I was serious because my first thought was the XJT to SKW to this issue. That and Seggy first saying it was to be and then the FAA wouldn't like it if not union. Thanks for the info. I might be talking to a non union group shortly. 8(
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@Seggy is referring to the countless seminars and meetings we both attended throughout the years with SME's from the FAA regarding safety reporting. Most carriers are transitioning to the AQP training platform. This style of training works exceptionally well when there is good realistic data to start from. The FAA has a concern that unless you have good gatekeepers of the information there will be a break down in trust amongst the pilot groups and as a result AQP training as well as FAA advisories in the future will go downhill, and fast! The FAA on several occasions has liked the idea of having a defined person or group of people (gatekeepers) to be in charge of this information. Since most carriers are unionized they default to having language regarding bargaining agents.

I know @Nick knows a lot more on this subject than I do. He gets a bad rap but I still appreciate all of his hard work. :).

Tracy do not worry about the union or non union carrier at this moment. Go to training kick ass and get a new airplane on the certificate. The rest of this stuff will come down the line. As always continue to ask questions and good on you to keep your head on a swivel regarding the safety culture.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
There is no final report on that incident. I would like to see it when it comes out. "What happened during the investigation." Chief, there is no report out yet. Are you implying someone inside SWAPA who is supposed to protect confidential information regarding an accident just happened to call you and share this information regarding the LGA Captain?
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I'm not talking about the final report. I'm talking about how one issue, inside of a bigger issue, was handled. Stop trying to imply that I'm telling you something that needs to stay confidential. I gave you no specifics and it isn't even worth arguing. Just pointing out that a lot more went Into the decision then you lead on.

@Cptnchia has been on both sides of the table. You might want to sit back and absorb some of his knowledge. Hell if I worked for his carrier I would push to have him sitting in negotiations. That's just me.

I get you hate unions and you think they are nothing but trash. Be thankful you have never had to use one to fullest extent. I'm sure though, over the course of your long career, you are going to have to call on someone. It is comforting to know there are union brothers and sisters out there willing to help. Maybe VA has a great open door policy but I'm willing to bet they won't go to bat to the same level as a union.
 
amorris311 said:
I'm not talking about the final report. I'm talking about how one issue, inside of a bigger issue, was handled. Stop trying to imply that I'm telling you something that needs to stay confidential. I gave you no specifics and it isn't even worth arguing. Just pointing out that a lot more went Into the decision then you lead on.

@Cptnchia has been on both sides of the table. You might want to sit back and absorb some of his knowledge. Hell if I worked for his carrier I would push to have him sitting in negotiations. That's just me.

I get you hate unions and you think they are nothing but trash. Be thankful you have never had to use one to fullest extent. I'm sure though, over the course of your long career, you are going to have to call on someone. It is comforting to know there are union brothers and sisters out there willing to help. Maybe VA has a great open door policy but I'm willing to bet they won't go to bat to the same level as a union.
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What one issue inside of a bigger issue are you referring to? Without confidential information, you wouldn't know any more than I do about that incident at LGA.

IMO, the times of non-union 121 passenger airlines is limited. I think JetBlue's drive is going to be key going forward. If it passes, then I think VX's drive will be next. There's a very good chance it'll pass here. After all, enough pilots were on board the VAPA idea. I don't know about SkyWest.

I admit that a union would help in a bent metal/injury/accident case. I agree I'd rather have a union than not if that is the situation I find myself in.

HOWEVER. For everything else, ALPA is just a business. Quite a few union officers are nothing short of crooks (hooray for the architect of the 9E concession/SSP deal is now the CP). And please don't say union "brothers and sisters" when they are all literally trying to undercut you and fly bigger planes for less money. It's a ridiculous joke. And ALPA's current headmaster is far too pro-company in general.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Wow, stay classy.
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Wow, stay humble, or keep your head in the sand and ignore years of hard learning and people who actually may know more than you.


Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I. Look at SWA's hard landing gear collapse at LGA. The FO was retrained and that was that, but the CA was outright fired. Not even SWAPA will get her job back. In fact, it seems SWAPA is fine with the firing.
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Ya think that maybe her enormous disciplinary file and multiple pro Stan interventions might have added weight to her termination? Or are we just selectively parsing arguments?

Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I also don't know what 'managamous' is. It's not in the dictionary.
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The word was magnanimous, which got mangled by auto spell, but you knew that. Nice deflection.
 
Cptnchia said:
Ya think that maybe her enormous disciplinary file and multiple pro Stan interventions might have added weight to her termination? Or are we just selectively parsing arguments?
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True, another downside of a union. Overly-protecting those that should have been fired long ago.
 
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