What's the Point of a Union at (Regional/Major/Etc.)

Cherokee_Cruiser said:
True, another downside of a union. Overly-protecting those that should have been fired long ago.
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Since you still know everything about 9E go open your contract to section 19. That's what unions protect. The process in which people can get terminated and disciplined. If they picked and chose who and what to protect there would be not protections in the contract. When you make arguments like that make sure you know what you are talking about.
 
amorris311 said:
Since you still know everything about 9E go open your contract to section 19. That's what unions protect. The process in which people can get terminated and disciplined. If they picked and chose who and what to protect there would be not protections in the contract. When you make arguments like that make sure you know what you are talking about.
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I threw out anything related to 9E long ago. And that's not what I was talking about. You know exactly the kinds of people I'm alluding to. Like infamous Captain MC. That kind of person should have been fired a long time ago but every time the union saved him. There are many more examples.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I threw out anything related to 9E long ago. And that's not what I was talking about. You know exactly the kinds of people I'm alluding to. Like infamous Captain MC. That kind of person should have been fired a long time ago but every time the union saved him. There are many more examples.
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They held the company accountable to the process that was negotiated and agreed upon. Unfortunately some people who probably should not make it do in order to save and preserve the contract.
 
Contextual clues lead me to believe that you guys are arguing with CC, who I no longer have to see (thank you ignore list!). Trust me, guys, if it is him, don't waste your time. Put him on the ignore list and forget he ever existed.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Contextual clues lead me to believe that you guys are arguing with CC, who I no longer have to see (thank you ignore list!). Trust me, guys, if it is him, don't waste your time. Put him on the ignore list and forget he ever existed.
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While I would love to do it many people lurk on this site and sit in the fence on a plethora of issues. If we can inform in a non demeaning way I think it will work better in our favor.
 
amorris311 said:
While I would love to do it many people lurk on this site and sit in the fence on a plethora of issues. If we can inform in a non demeaning way I think it will work better in our favor.
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I doubt it. By engaging him instead of ignoring him, you just give him a platform from which to spread his BS. The "lurkers" think he has valid points because they don't have the experience to know better. If everyone ignored him, he would go away and his nonsense wouldn't spread any longer.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I doubt it. By engaging him instead of ignoring him, you just give him a platform from which to spread his BS. The "lurkers" think he has valid points because they don't have the experience to know better. If everyone ignored him, he would go away and his nonsense wouldn't spread any longer.
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Maybe. I'm still going to engage for the time being. I've been around enough people like him who use emotion to fuel their decisions. Once you take a deep breath and see how the contract addresses many issues it gives people hope that having organized representation is a good thing in the long term.
 
amorris311 said:
Maybe. I'm still going to engage for the time being. I've been around enough people like him who use emotion to fuel their decisions. Once you take a deep breath and see how the contract addresses many issues it gives people hope that having organized representation is a good thing in the long term.
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I wish more people would "...take a deep breath..." on a regular basis.
 
What's the deal with the "certain carrier's crew meals"? That's what I'm interested to know.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC120-66B.pdf

Nothing about a union requirement
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I stand by what I said...

Per the Advisory Circular it technically isn't a FOQA or ASAP program without a union.

On the top of the second page of the MOU it says.......

c. The elements of ASAP are set forth in a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) between the FAA, certificate holder management, and an appropriate third party, such as an employee’s labor organization or their representatives.
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Here is how it works. At Colgan, before ALPA was voted in on property, we had an ASAP Program but was never signed by anyone from the pilots. Sometimes they had meetings with only the company and FAA to discuss filed ASAP reports. Once we had ALPA on property, we signed the MOU and it was then a three party MOU. It was a REALLY big deal to get this a three party MOU, ESPECIALLY from the FAA. The day after I was elected MEC Chair, I got a call from our POI asking when we would come by to sign the MOU to make it three party.

Also, like I said, the FAA hates when there are no official bargaining unit within the ASAP MOU. They usually have more problems with the program without that third party.
 
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Seggy said:
In order to comply with the FAA guidance in the MOU you need a collective bargaining representative to serve as the gatekeeper of information. If you don't have that, the company can go after the pilots which defeats the purpose of these programs.

Even @PhilosopherPilot who I vehemently disagree with on about everything, agrees, a certified union ONLY fills that role.
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Don't put words in my mouth....

You need a CBA to have a 3 party MOU, but you don't have to have. CBA to have FOQA or ASAP.

We have FOQA and gatekeepers without a CBA. The company has agreements with the pilot group, they just are individual contracts, not a CBA.

We have an ASAP MOU that is a two party MOU. But we have contractual protections in place. They just aren't CBA protections. They are individual pilot employment agreements.
 
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Seggy said:
Also @SteveC

Per the Advisory Circular it technically isn't a FOQA or ASAP program without a union.
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Seggy said:
c. The elements of ASAP are set forth in a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) between the FAA, certificate holder management, and an appropriate third party, such as an employee’s labor organization or their representatives.
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Are you saying that the AC defines "appropriate third party" as only a union?
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
Don't put words in my mouth....

You need a CBA to have a 3 party MOU, but you don't have to have. CBA to have FOQA or ASAP.

We have FOQA and gatekeepers without a CBA. The company has agreements with the pilot group, they just are individual contracts, not a CBA.
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I know you don't need a union or CBA to have a FOQA or ASAP 'Program'.

But, what is best practice.
 
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SteveC said:
Are you saying that the AC defines "appropriate third party" as only a union?
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Technically, yes, you need a union to adhere to the Advisory Circular.

You can have a ASAP or FOQA 'program' without a union, but that isn't ideal.
 
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