What's the Point of a Union at (Regional/Major/Etc.)

killbilly said:
I asked the "why unions in airlines" question here on this site about 6, maybe 7 years ago. And some of the answers I got were debatable, but the most important point someone made was this: (I think it was @wheelsup who made the point, but it's been a LONG time)

Given safety cultures, it is not possible to have a meritocracy among a pilot group and still maintain safety. Pilots need to be fungible, and the union helps establish the necessary framework for that.

That made sense to me.
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It wasn't me I don't know what the word fungible means :D
 
Regional pilot here:

I miss 0% of EGL ALPA when it comes to securing better pay and working conditions. (I have better pay and working conditions than I did at a represented carrier now.)

I miss 100% of EGL ALPA when it comes to ASAP, FOQA, Aeromedical, Professional Standards, Legal, Loss-of-License, and so on. The level of expertise over there in Herndon is pretty staggering, and we can't even begin to come close. (SAPA Aeromedical is a good joke - you're better off calling AOPA. And there is no legal team. If I'm better off calling AOPA for things, then, well...)
 
People that think if tomorrow there were no unions all would be great.

Without unions. Management would slowly erode everything won in the last 100 years that has been "standard"

Oh and it's every man for himself

Canada has far higher union participation for I believe one reason.

Our media is somewhat held to account for the truth of their stories, the American media is not. Corporations have managed to brainwash an entire nation into thinking unions are bad.

It's amazing, sad and Hitleresque.
 
Cptnchia said:
Jamie Baker asked him what the costs were to the company for our last contract bump and the reply was, "It's cost neutral to the company, so we're not worried." Doesn't get more nuanced than that.
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Do you have a link? I'd love to read the whole exchange, since we know that the contract was certainly NOT cost neutral, and lying to analysts on an earnings call is basically a big legal no-no.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Do you have a link? I'd love to read the whole exchange, since we know that the contract was certainly NOT cost neutral, and lying to analysts on an earnings call is basically a big legal no-no.
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Sure, it's buried somewhere in DeltaNet, in the PR archives. Am I gonna go digging for it? Nope, not today. Maybe next week. You could go find a DALPAite and ask them. I seem to remember them parroting that talking point.

BTW, how do "we" know that the contract was certainly NOT cost neutral? What proof do you have of that?
 
Cptnchia said:
Sure, it's buried somewhere in DeltaNet, in the PR archives. Am I gonna go digging for it? Nope, not today. Maybe next week. You could go find a DALPAite and ask them. I seem to remember them parroting that talking point.

BTW, how do "we" know that the contract was certainly NOT cost neutral? What proof do you have of that?
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3236754-e_t_vs_alien_s_guy_540.jpg
 
jtrain609 said:
Wouldn't that data be held behind a NDA?
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Some is, some isn't. Different airlines require NDAs for it, while others don't. AirTran never required E&FA to sign an NDA for the analysis that they did for our contract negotiations at all, even on very specific items. Other airlines want specific numbers protected, such as the cost of individual items like health care or sick time. It just depends. But I can't remember a case of an airline wanting protected the number representing the overall increase to pilot payroll. In fact, they usually want that number disclosed so they can say how big a number it is and how much it's going to hurt the airline if the pilots insist on more. You also have to remember that almost all of the costing that is done can be done without looking at the company's books, so the number can be found usually without any proprietary information. Where NDAs are most important is in concessionary bargaining, where you're trying to get pinpoint numbers to show a bankruptcy judge to get "credit" for each concessionary work rule.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
Regional pilot here:

I miss 0% of EGL ALPA when it comes to securing better pay and working conditions. (I have better pay and working conditions than I did at a represented carrier now.)

I miss 100% of EGL ALPA when it comes to ASAP, FOQA, Aeromedical, Professional Standards, Legal, Loss-of-License, and so on. The level of expertise over there in Herndon is pretty staggering, and we can't even begin to come close. (SAPA Aeromedical is a good joke - you're better off calling AOPA. And there is no legal team. If I'm better off calling AOPA for things, then, well...)
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And that right there is the biggest misconception about non-union airlines. ASAP, FOQA, Aeromedical, Professional Standards, and legal (purchase for 20/month) are all available without a union. Our company has all these things. In fact, the Aeromedical portion is the same one that ALPA uses.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
And that right there is the biggest misconception about non-union airlines. ASAP, FOQA, Aeromedical, Professional Standards, and legal (purchase for 20/month) are all available without a union. Our company has all these things. In fact, the Aeromedical portion is the same one that ALPA uses.
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You obviously have never read an ASAP or FOQA MOU.
 
I'm not really familiar with airline ASAP or FOQA MOU. Anybody mind explaining for me why they are exclusive to a union shop?
 
SteveC said:
I'm not really familiar with airline ASAP or FOQA MOU. Anybody mind explaining for me why they are exclusive to a union shop?
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In order to comply with the FAA guidance in the MOU you need a collective bargaining representative to serve as the gatekeeper of information. If you don't have that, the company can go after the pilots which defeats the purpose of these programs.

Even @PhilosopherPilot who I vehemently disagree with on about everything, agrees, a certified union ONLY fills that role.
 
Seggy said:
In order to comply with the FAA guidance in the MOU you need a collective bargaining representative to serve as the gatekeeper of information. If you don't have that, the company can go after the pilots which defeats the purpose of these programs.

Even @PhilosopherPilot who I vehemently disagree with on about everything, agrees, a certified union ONLY fills that role.
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Does it have to be a union? Can there be some kind of third party gatekeeper involved?
 
Seggy said:
Per the MOU and FAA Guidance and best practices it should be a union. Companies have ASAP and FOQA programs that aren't unionized but the FAA hates that.
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So you dont need a union? Was going to ask about SKW.
 
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