Malaysia Airlines 777 missing

Is that even possible?

-Fox
Only if the only person alive was a suicidal pilot, and if so WHY ditch safely.

If this thing crashed there's debris somewhere.

The world is full of busy shipping lanes, aircraft etc.

I find it next to impossible to believe a 777 could have crashed this long ago, and no wreckage found yet, not one piece
 
I find it next to impossible to believe a 777 could have crashed this long ago, and no wreckage found yet, not one piece

I don't find that difficult to believe, at all.

The world is a big, big, big place and an airliner is phenomenally small in comparison. The oceans are vast, and shipping lanes only cover a very small part of that vastness.

I personally find it more likely that, outside of some strange plot twists, the airplane might never be located -- either intentionally or accidentally.
 
I personally find it more likely that, outside of some strange plot twists, the airplane might never be located -- either intentionally or accidentally.

Agree.

Just like there are accidents out there that....from the available evidence or lack thereof......a probable cause will just never be known or otherwise cannot be determined.

But that a tough nut to swallow for many Type A style people who get uncomfortable with the unknown, or with somthing that could potentially have been outside their sphere of control. That's understandable, but its also reality. We don't have control over everything, as much as we'd probably like to think we do.

"There's just NO way that.........."

Unfortunately, there is always a way for anything.
 
I don't find that difficult to believe, at all.

The world is a big, big, big place and an airliner is phenomenally small in comparison. The oceans are vast, and shipping lanes only cover a very small part of that vastness.

I personally find it more likely that, outside of some strange plot twists, the airplane might never be located -- either intentionally or accidentally.
I found a cool reddit post showing how easy it is to lose some "as big as a 777"

I'm looking for it. I'll post when I find it
 
I thought it was a really bad idea when the airlines pressured manufacturers to automate the flight engineer function out of existence in the name of cost savings

Why is that?

Technology has made a lot of formerly-indespensible aircrew positions redundant. There's no reason to have a dedicated navigator or radio operator on board these days -- what makes an FE any different? Those crew positions were needed on earlier aircraft because the systems and the operational environment demanded it.

I think your supposition about a third crew member being a safeguard against rogue activity is not reason enough. Rogue actions of commercial pilots are so statistically insignificant that it just doesn't make sense. Any "safety net" benefits of earlier aircraft with crew members beyond the two pilots having another set of eyes and ears to monitor what's going on were purely incidental, and not built in to designing the aircraft that way.
 
I don't find that difficult to believe, at all.

The world is a big, big, big place and an airliner is phenomenally small in comparison. The oceans are vast, and shipping lanes only cover a very small part of that vastness.

I personally find it more likely that, outside of some strange plot twists, the airplane might never be located -- either intentionally or accidentally.
It amazes people that Mother Nature can still produce conditions more intense, icing more severe, precipitation and turbulence more extreme, and so on. I'm not sure people really apprehend just how big the world is and that nature still holds the upper hand when we presume to tread in the skies.
 
The world is full of busy shipping lanes, aircraft etc.
I find it next to impossible to believe a 777 could have crashed this long ago, and no wreckage found yet, not one piece

Northwest Orient Airlines Flight 2501 crashed into lake Michigan in 1950 and the wreckage was never found. That was a lake, albeit a rather large/deep one. But months of searching with divers, dredges, draggers, boats, all the various types of equipment available at the time and it was never found. There have been just dozens of subsequent searches over the decades with better equipment which have turned up bupkis.

As I mentioned yesterday, some debris which was floating will now be so waterlogged, that it has already sunk, much on the surface has already been dispersed into a wider area by the wind and currents making them separated and less easy to see. Eventually something may wash ashore. Since no one seems to know even an approximation of where the aircraft crashed, it's beyond daunting to try a find her. The area is just so incredibly vast and they are looking in at least several directions as of now, we are at a point now where finding significant debris and large amounts of it in one or more areas is growing less likely. I sincerely wish that this was not the case, because unless a reasonable area can be defined as to where she is, any possible recovery of the recorders is pretty much non existent and we need them desperately if we are to get a better/truer picture of what occurred in this flight.

And as far as shipping lanes, they are just that. Much like prescribed plane routes, but even more constricted and fewer of them. Commercial cargo vessels do not stray from them and unless some debris comes very close to one and is noticed in the daytime, let alone at night (very unlikely to happen), those vessels may not find anything either. Commercial fishing vessels would be more likely to find debris as they stay in certain areas longer, move at much slower speeds, the decks are lower in height relative to the surface of the water than a tanker, they have more crews out on the decks working, etc.

One has to remember too, that such an intensive, wide spread search at sea is extremely taxing, stressful, intense and just exhausting for those who are looking. Crews, and entire vessels/planes will have to be cycled in and out at some point.
 
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Only if the only person alive was a suicidal pilot, and if so WHY ditch safely.

If this thing crashed there's debris somewhere.

The world is full of busy shipping lanes, aircraft etc.

I find it next to impossible to believe a 777 could have crashed this long ago, and no wreckage found yet, not one piece
The world is a big place. And it is busy full of traffic, but its full of traffic in sectors designated as "tracks" or "shipping lanes". Outside of those, its pretty quiet.
 
Only if the only person alive was a suicidal pilot, and if so WHY ditch safely.

If this thing crashed there's debris somewhere.

The world is full of busy shipping lanes, aircraft etc.

I find it next to impossible to believe a 777 could have crashed this long ago, and no wreckage found yet, not one piece

Let me tell you this, even when you know a surface target is in a given area and you have the benefit of aircraft purpose-built for the job (radar, FLIR), it can be tough to find surface craft. Finding debris in light chop could be damn tough even with pieces the size of garage doors.

In a patrol or SAR situation, hearts drop when a search area is expanded, Think about the math, 10 squared is 100, 20 squared is 400. 100 squared is 10,000.

I wouldn't be surprised if the exact crash site isn't found for years, maybe decades...or forever.

Think about this for a moment. If you had only known that ValuJet 592 had gone down someplace in Florida, do you think the crash site would have ever been found?
 
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Why is that?

Technology has made a lot of formerly-indespensible aircrew positions redundant. There's no reason to have a dedicated navigator or radio operator on board these days -- what makes an FE any different? Those crew positions were needed on earlier aircraft because the systems and the operational environment demanded it.

I think your supposition about a third crew member being a safeguard against rogue activity is not reason enough. Rogue actions of commercial pilots are so statistically insignificant that it just doesn't make sense. Any "safety net" benefits of earlier aircraft with crew members beyond the two pilots having another set of eyes and ears to monitor what's going on were purely incidental, and not built in to designing the aircraft that way.

Thanks, Hacker15e
 
Are you guys referencing this?


That was a helluva story and an incredible lesson in total multi-crew commitment, communication, resources, covering all what if's, preparation, examining all the scenarios and planning by both the Pan Am crew and the Coast Guard crew. Really incredible. The nads of the crewman who boarded the torn wreckage just minutes before she sank, to make sure there were no pax left on board.......awesome as hell. Haven't seen that video in many years. It's hard to imagine the Captain and what he must have experienced mentally, physically and emotionally having to circle all night over the area to use up his remaining fuel in prep for the ditching and to make the ditching when the sea was calmer and in the daytime.

Brings to mind National 193 and JAL 2

national.jpg



jal-dc862-in-sf-bay1.jpg
 
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If or when this is ever solved, the media is going to feel stupid (not that they shouldnt already) Personally, I dont buy that the pilots did anything intentional to crash this airplane. Yes, as far as anyone knows, traditionally, it takes human fingers to turn off a transponder, then again, isnt it entirely possible a major electrical system failure or fire might have the same result? We dont really know and its looking more and more like we will never know. I still think there was some sort of on board catastrophic event and everything went to crap when they attempted to turn back to where they came from. Thats just me though. As always, its impossible to speculate.


Also, I saw CNN reference the Silk Air 737 crash as an example of "suicide by the pilot" Correct me if Im wrong but wasnt there some speculation that the airplane had a faulty rudder servo valve and suffered the same fate at USAir 427?
 
How long did it take to find the Air France flight a couple years ago?
She crashed on June 1, 2009 and the main wreckage was found in early April of 2011 on the ocean floor. The recorders I believe were found on May 1st of 2011 also on the seabed.
 
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Also, I saw CNN reference the Silk Air 737 crash as an example of "suicide by the pilot" Correct me if Im wrong but wasnt there some speculation that the airplane had a faulty rudder servo valve and suffered the same fate at USAir 427?
That was sort of a mess. The NTSB did not find any fault with the airplane nor that the rudder/servo was at fault. The rudder PCU was examined in detail immediately following its recovery and no defect was identified. However sometime later a civil case was launched by some of the victim's families in L.A. and a jury trail proceeded in which the jury found in preference of the victims.

Business Times - 09 Jul 2004

SilkAir crash: US firm told to pay US$44m


"Los Angeles Superior Court jury says defects in rudder control system caused the crash


(LOS ANGELES) Parker Hannifin Corp, the world's largest maker of hydraulic equipment, was told by a Los Angeles jury to pay US$43.6 million to the families of three people killed in a 1997 crash of a SilkAir Pte plane in Indonesia.

The Los Angeles Superior Court jury on Tuesday determined that defects in a rudder control system caused the Boeing Co 737 to plunge from 35,000 feet, killing all 104 people aboard.

The US National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) concluded that there were no mechanical defects and the pilot intentionally caused the crash.

'We are incredulous,' said Lorrie Paul Crum, a spokeswoman for Cleveland-based Parker Hannifin, who said the company will appeal. 'This is the best case for tort reform I've seen yet.'

The jury assigned the entire responsibility for the crash to Parker Hannifin, rejecting the option of apportioning any fault to SilkAir or Boeing, which manufactured the 10-month-old 737. Parker Hannifin was the only defendant.

Boeing had settled earlier and SilkAir had paid about US$100,000 to each family under the Warsaw Convention, which limits airlines' liability in international accidents, said Walter Lack, a lawyer for the families.

The case was the first US trial over the crash of SilkAir Flight 135, Mr Lack said. The trial established Parker Hannifin's liability and relatives of about 30 other people will now go to trial in the same Los Angeles court to determine how much Parker Hannifin owes them in damages, he said.

'This is just the tip of the iceberg,' Mr Lack said. Another 40 cases are pending in federal court in Seattle, he said.

SilkAir is Singapore Airline Ltd's regional unit, serving mainly tourists travelling to Asian destinations. SilkAir Flight 135 was travelling to Singapore from Jakarta when it crashed in December 1997.

The NTSB said in a December 2000 letter to the Indonesian National Transportation Safety Committee that 'no airplane- related mechanical malfunctions or failures caused or contributed to the accident' and the evidence indicates the crash was caused by 'intentional pilot action'. The Indonesian safety agency gave no official reason for the crash.

The US agency investigates major international accidents involving US air carriers or US manufactured jets. NTSB reports can't be used as evidence at trial under federal law, Ms Crum said. Mr Lack said factual statements from NTSB reports can be used, while conclusions and recommendations are barred by the law.

Parker Hannifin intends to challenge that statute in its appeal as well as seek a legislative remedy, Ms Crum said. The verdict won't affect Parker Hannifin's earnings because the company is covered by insurance, she added.

The case was brought by the families of Soen Lay Heng, 46, a Singapore resident who specialised in security printing; Merleen Tan Peck Jiang, 26, a Singapore resident who worked as a computer consultant; and Kenneth George Wilson, 44, a Scottish citizen living in Indonesia.

The trial before Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Emilie Elias lasted six weeks. The jury deliberated for four days before delivering its unanimous verdict on all questions, Mr Lack said." - Bloomberg

Difficult to imagine when the Captain who had recently been demoted and had huge personal financial issues, had locked the F/O out of the cockpit, disconnected the FDR, rolled the plane over on her back, held it in a 80 degree nose down dive that went supersonic, crashing her.
 
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How long did it take to find the Air France flight a couple years ago?

Flotsam from the wreckage was spotted the day after the aircraft was reported missing. The first of the bodies were found four days later. However, the main debris field wasn't found on the ocean floor until just over 22 months after the crash.
 
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