Eagle Management Comes Back to the Table Despite Threats

[Firebird2XC]

@Firebird2XC, you really need to listen to @Polar742.

This is the airline business, not "Braveheart" before King Edward's army shows up during the fight for Scottish Independence.

I know you're under a lot of pressure, but as much as I beg people on the "national" side of the house to tamp down the vitriol against Eagle, you have to tamp down the aggressive nature of your posts against those that disagree with the cause.

I get to where I don't want to read any of the Eagle threads and I only got involved because a couple of our users on one side of the issue were giving me acid reflux from flashbacks of how we were spoken to every concessionary vote by people who "knew what my best interests were" but got kicked to the curb and had egg on their face when the company proceeded with their business plan in spite of what their "experts" said.

The deck is always stacked in management's favor. ALPA really can't do a lot in this situation and, from what you've seen, don't expect much from above.

I haven't listened to Polar for years. I will, however, listen to you.

I'm not really sure there's any point in my being here anymore. The odds are decidedly steep against pilots but they weren't always that way, and might not always stay that way.

But when even you are telling me to give up because things won't ever change and there's nobody out there that will help, I seriously doubt why I'm even posting here. I've posted to make a point, and I've posted to try to motivate people, and I've posted to make sure my fellow pilots and dreamers remember to keep their heads held high.

If that's a message so readily crushed by people who aren't even in the industry anymore, let alone my particular carrier, there's really no point in my being here. The trolls win- and management wins. I'll take my message elsewhere.

I'm out.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Thanks, Derg!

 

[ClarkGriswold]

Things that will last 10 minutes...

 

[mikecweb]

 

[Dugie8]

I haven't listened to Polar for years. I will, however, listen to you.

I'm not really sure there's any point in my being here anymore. The odds are decidedly steep against pilots but they weren't always that way, and might not always stay that way.

But when even you are telling me to give up because things won't ever change and there's nobody out there that will help, I seriously doubt why I'm even posting here. I've posted to make a point, and I've posted to try to motivate people, and I've posted to make sure my fellow pilots and dreamers remember to keep their heads held high.

If that's a message so readily crushed by people who aren't even in the industry anymore, let alone my particular carrier, there's really no point in my being here. The trolls win- and management wins. I'll take my message elsewhere.

I'm out.

Don't take this as harsh.

Welcome to aviation (I know, most hated saying in the aviation world, next to pilot shortage). I've learned many things that I never in a million years thought would need learning but the most important one is, no one has your best interest at heart except you. Sticking your neck out to help other is a sure way to get your head chopped off and standing up for what you believe in is a good way to get said neck dragged out for the chopping.

Good luck to you guys.

 

[Seggy]

However, each APA, DPA, Teamsters and USAPA bag tag certainly appreciates the marketing.

Doesn't matter if it is APA, DPA, Teamsters, and USAPA, the same folks find their way into union positions. Look at @ATN_Pilot when his carrier was another union, who is running Teamsters Airline Division, etc.

 

[Seggy]

That's like saying "You don't like the direction this country is going? You should be president!" I'll gladly admit that I do absolutely nothing union related. My reasons? First I think its a lost cause because of a lot of the same reasons that Doug brought up. People who don't tow the line just simply aren't tolerated. I have neither the time, nor energy to deal with union politics. The system is broken...our MEC chair stepped down. His replacement...pulled from and voted on by the MEC. Hooray inbreeding!

Doug said that the person who threatened him recently was kicked out of his union position and rightfully so. With that said, if it can happen at his property, if one isn't tolerated for not towing the line at your property I would suspect a similar reaction. Even with all of that, I get that some people don't like to volunteer or can't, however there are other ways to get involved? You live in base, when was the last time you went to a LEC Meeting? How many LEC Meetings have you been to living in base?

Maybe, maybe not. It depends on how accurately their MEC is representing what they're hearing from the pilots that elected them. If I remember correctly, the vote to not send the TA to the pilot group for a vote was a pretty close one. That is generally what I'm seeing through talking to my friends at Eagle, people on the jumpseat, and people on the inter webs (which admittedly is an inaccurate way of polling opinion).

Ever hear of the vocal minority? I do agree there is a strong chorus of 'nos' at your property and at Eagle. Your property is different than Eagle. I am not doubting where your pilot group stands, but I am very doubtful the Eagle Pilots are getting the full story from their MEC.

Well, he hasn't told me. Sorry I'm not psychic.

You have no problem correlating his views as that of ALPA National, yet you don't even know what he does for ALPA National? So how can you correlate one's views of a larger organization if you don't know what he does for that organization? BTW, you don't need to be a psychic to know what he does. It is readily available from a variety of sources.

That's understandable, but I'm not voting for them. And again, if you look at my pilot group they don't tend to agree with you. Like you said earlier, we are the union. The union should be representing our interests...that simply isn't happening. Instead we have people like you telling us what we should be doing.

No, I am saying that there are realities of the situation at play here.

What I want is probably unlikely to be achieved. But that doesn't mean I'm not willing to try. In my perfect world there would be some semblance of pilot unity, and it should start with ALPA national. The regional model is currently unsustainable. The reason for this is because of the new model of how regionals are compensated by their mainline partners. The race to the bottom WILL continue until either people start saying no or planes start falling out of the sky in a Colganesque manner.


Every day I go to work I see the increased operational pressures caused by cost savings in an attempt to work within the constraints of the budget provided by our mainline partners. This is simply unsustainable. Taking concessions won't fix it. Either the mainline companies will have to start paying the regionals more or they're going to have to get rid of them and do the flying themselves. Those are my goals. They may be unrealistic...but that doesn't mean its not worth trying.

I don't disagree with anything you say above. But, if you can't reach your goals what is your backup plan if your pilot group votes in concessions -or- flying is reshuffled?

 

[Seggy]

@Seggy

The problem with the idea that if you don't like something "get involved" is murky. And you know exactly what I'm talking about because you and another user were there when some things were said a few years ago when my name went up for some 'stuff'.


I've been bitching, complaining, screaming and attempting to volunteer for over a decade.

However, the power structure we had at DALPA wasn't "come join us as a symphony of voices will make us strong", it wasn't about dissenting opinions toward a common goal, they wanted more of a tightly-orchestrated monotone Gregorian chant where if you didn't act as a good little soldier, you were of no use and will be marginalized at all cost. And there were certainly a number of "executions" on a number of levels.

We're at the other end of that attitude where we have a drive for alternate representation at SouthernJets and DALPA leadership has been making wide, categorical change in part because everyone's absolutely fed up and tired of business as usual. Remember, many of the people running the DPA drive are people who were in elected positions that were sent to the guillotine during administration changes because they wouldn't fall into line.

You "nip it in the bud" not with some of the attitudes of "I know better than you" displayed in this thread and in many LEC meetings around "alpa.Byzantium", you nip it in the bud with engagement. If engagement is too hard, or maddening, it's probably time to sink back into the folds of the seniority list.

Personally, I know that if someone suggested we sit down and listen because we're only mere mortals, as if it was 2003 at DALPA, there would be a recall effort that afternoon in our current environment.

I am not a DPA person, don't get me wrong, but the threat is real and that fire is being fed by some of the same tactics used on the American Eagle pilots from those that claim to know what's best.

Last October someone at DALPA gave me a "shut up, I know better" at a PUB event, in light of what's going on with our pilot group, that person got sent back to the line and is no longer in his position.

We cannot afford that attitude anymore nor will our pilots in 2014 tolerate it.

Be careful. I beg you.

It isn't a murky argument.

First, I agree with you. If you don't like something and you try to bring it to one's attention to try to have it fixed (which I am going to try to do tomorrow btw with a situation) and they go after one person like they did to you that is bull crap. No argument from me on that. That person was rightfully kicked out of their position.

Secondly, to 'get involved' one doesn't have to be in a volunteer position. I get that some folks aren't made out to be volunteers or don't have time to. However, I want to get a number of how many contractual roadshows, LEC Meetings, PUB Events, etc. @Screaming_Emu attended over the last few years? He is strongly opinionated on the contract which is great, but was that through a roadshow attended or other matters?

Thirdly, it deals with the be careful. I am being very careful. People's livelihood are dependent on this stuff and if they take a hard line without knowing those consequences are we really accomplishing anything? I think that some folks don't understand the consequences of getting others worked up into a frothing lather over something they have no clue about. The post about 'proposed' pay rates is a perfect example.

 

[Seggy]

However, it seems that you and @Seggy are fully crossing the line from "educating" to "dictating".

They know.

It's a dead horse.

They understand.

You can beat that dead horse as much as you'd like and if they come up with a different conclusion, further beating of that horse will render nothing.

I fully know how it felt when I voted our last TA down turning bankruptcy and I had every Tom, Dick and Harry telling me what I should do. I fully remember "They ain't screwing around man, you're voting yourself out of a job!" from union leadership, colleagues at regionals, other majors and people who were all hopped up on the last Atlanta Journal-Constitution.

Maybe you feel that @Firebird2XC doesn't, but the consequences are his to suffer, he's engaged and, at this point, that's his business.

I've been right there where he is and you need to back off and let them do their thing.

Posting the proposed pay rates from a union saying they are real is a huge problem for a lot of others folk's business. Especially when people are trying to get educated on what to do across multiple pilot groups.

 

[Seggy]

Hypothetical question for @Derg and your questioning of being an ALPA 'leader' or 'representative'. If you can for a moment put yourself in a ALPA 'leader/representative' shoes to see the conundrum you could realistically be under.

Say you, @Screaming_Emu and @ATN_Pilot work for the same regional airline based together. @ATN_Pilot wants to be the Captain Rep in an upcoming election. @Derg wants none of that and runs against @ATN_Pilot and wins. Well, that regional airline just went through a Bankruptcy and now management wants more cuts. @Derg, you are now faced with 'non-lifers' like @Screaming_Emu who don't even want the TA to be put out to vote, yet, you have other people you also represent who are 'lifers' saying that they feel that more cuts are necessary to survive, they want it put out for a vote and are willing to bring a duty of fair representation law suit against you for not 'hearing them out and letting the democratic processes play their course' if you don't vote for the TA. What do you do? You say you are a representative but how can you represent everyone in this case?

 

[Kingairer]

Sorry this comes 5 pages to late...

----------------------

jin·go·ism noun \ˈjiŋ-(ˌ)gō-ˌi-zəm\

: the feelings and beliefs of people who think that their country is always right and who are in favor of aggressive acts against other countries














Full Definition of JINGOISM


: extreme chauvinism or nationalism marked especially by a belligerent foreign policy

— jin·go·ist noun or adjective

— jin·go·is·tic adjective

— jin·go·is·ti·cal·ly adverb


See jingoism defined for English-language learners »


Examples of JINGOISM

When the war began many people were caught up in a wave of jingoism.
<his loudmouthed jingoism will not win us any foreign allies>
---------------------

 

[BobDDuck]

I'll one up you... and it's not even animated.

 

[mrivc211]

I'm curious. What are you going to say if management comes to the table and says that AAG has had enough of the pilots' BS, and they're now demanding even further cuts? What if they show up to the table with a firm wind-down schedule of the EGL fleet, telling you to take even worse concessions if you want to keep your jobs at all?

Look, I certainly hope your foolish bravado works out like you hope. I just find it highly unlikely. And I'm wondering how the EGL pilots will react when they realize that the guys like you were wrong and led them down a path of ruin.

It's the internet Todd. Where all pilots are brave hero's, but pussycats when actually dealt with in person.

 

[Johnny Beau Bekkestad]

I was wondering about this move of meeting, could that have anything to do with making it more difficult for some people who negative about this to attend?

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Hypothetical question for @Derg and your questioning of being an ALPA 'leader' or 'representative'. If you can for a moment put yourself in a ALPA 'leader/representative' shoes to see the conundrum you could realistically be under.

Say you, @Screaming_Emu and @ATN_Pilot work for the same regional airline based together. @ATN_Pilot wants to be the Captain Rep in an upcoming election. @Derg wants none of that and runs against @ATN_Pilot and wins. Well, that regional airline just went through a Bankruptcy and now management wants more cuts. @Derg, you are now faced with 'non-lifers' like @Screaming_Emu who don't even want the TA to be put out to vote, yet, you have other people you also represent who are 'lifers' saying that they feel that more cuts are necessary to survive, they want it put out for a vote and are willing to bring a duty of fair representation law suit against you for not 'hearing them out and letting the democratic processes play their course' if you don't vote for the TA. What do you do? You say you are a representative but how can you represent everyone in this case?

Meanwhile, another carrier takes the flying.

Solved!

 

[H46Bubba]

Wow…6 and a half pages in just one day! I need a good taco and a cold Dos XX after reading through all the posts!

 

[mikecweb]

I'll one up you... and it's not even animated.

View attachment 27095

What was your search to find that?

 

[Polar742]

What was your search to find that?

Probably stolen from @Minuteman 's browser history.

 

[JEP]

What was your search to find that?

It sure wasnt 'tickle my tummy'

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Did your congressman call you and ask your opinion before casting his last vote? Of course not. That's not his job. His job is to act on his conscience as to what is best for his constituents.

HA HA HA HA! They tend to go with polling data around here, at least for things that are important in this district.