Republic letter to Pilots

I wouldn't say it's working for them. At least not to what I would call an acceptable standard.
It seems to be becoming the standard. Then they are "owned" by their employer/airline basically for ever.

I'm not saying its a good idea, or that it will happen. But the current state of 121 aviation is certainly vulnerable to falling into that cycle. A regional sends a 300 hr pilot to ameriflight, pays for it all, pays a salary during, straight to the right seat of JET afterwards. All in exchange for a "training" contract of say...5 years of low pay and commuting. You leave before said contract expires and you owe a prorated amount of "training" costs.

91 and 135 companies already do similar deals with type ratings and even basic "indoc" training. What's to stop the airlines?

Unfortunately, the hope of better QOL and pay at regionals would diminish if this were to take place.

Just my $0.02.
 
I don't think the above situation will work, not for 5 years of servitude at a regional. Especially since the min age for a 121 pilot is 23. Back in 08 some Eaglejet guy came in to my flightschool (I was a CFI) waving exactly what your talking about around. Basically, go to Amflight get some turbine and then go to Eagle... The response was... Meh.
 
I don't think the airlines were experiencing a "pilot shortage" in 08.

You're right...probably wont work. But things could get very interesting here soon. And airlines will get creative.
 
It seems to be becoming the standard. Then they are "owned" by their employer/airline basically for ever.

I'm not saying its a good idea, or that it will happen. But the current state of 121 aviation is certainly vulnerable to falling into that cycle. A regional sends a 300 hr pilot to ameriflight, pays for it all, pays a salary during, straight to the right seat of JET afterwards. All in exchange for a "training" contract of say...5 years of low pay and commuting. You leave before said contract expires and you owe a prorated amount of "training" costs.

91 and 135 companies already do similar deals with type ratings and even basic "indoc" training. What's to stop the airlines?

Unfortunately, the hope of better QOL and pay at regionals would diminish if this were to take place.

Just my $0.02.
The reason it's not working is because the product of that system is terrible.

Under no reasonable standard of competency is the program successful.
 
I don't think the airlines were experiencing a "pilot shortage" in 08.

You're right...probably wont work. But things could get very interesting here soon. And airlines will get creative.

The regionals were taking low timers back then. SJS was also a big thing. Now, pilots have 1500 hours to decide if they are okay making $22k a year or if they are more encouraged at finding other jobs away from 121. Its seems many are staying put instructing or looking elsewhere.
 
The reason it's not working is because the product of that system is terrible.

Under no reasonable standard of competency is the program successful.
I agree, terrible product! But it's terrible due to many more reasons than just using 135 cargo to build SIC time. It's terrible due to the initial training and other factors.

If US carriers were to do this (not saying they will) then the regulations and requirements could produce a much higher quality product.

Just because Ford produces a poor product, doesn't mean other auto makers SHOULD NOT use the assembly line.
 
The regionals were taking low timers back then. SJS was also a big thing. Now, pilots have 1500 hours to decide if they are okay making $22k a year or if they are more encouraged at finding other jobs away from 121. Its seems many are staying put instructing or looking elsewhere.
This will be a bigger issue than retirements (65) in my opinion. If a pilot instructs to say...1250tt, then takes a 135 PIC or corporate SIC gig for decent pay, why would they leave for $22k?

I agree pay needs to increase. But airlines are unpredictably "predictable" in a sense. Expect them to get creative BEFORE raising pay.
 
This will be a bigger issue than retirements (65) in my opinion. If a pilot instructs to say...1250tt, then takes a 135 PIC or corporate SIC gig for decent pay, why would they leave for $22k?

I agree pay needs to increase. But airlines are unpredictably "predictable" in a sense. Expect them to get creative BEFORE raising pay.

I honestly dont see any way they can get creative to entice pilots who have the required qualifications. They tried the signing bonus, assuming that would do the trick. They'd have to be complete idiots to think the average, well informed 1500 hour pilot would buy into anything they try to spin as an incentive without increasing the pay rates. It would actually be a little insulting to those pilots to see yet another "incentive" to work at XYZ Airlines.
 
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I honestly dont see any way they can get creative to entice pilots who have the required qualifications. They tried the signing bonus, assuming that would do the trick. They'd have to be complete idiots to think the average, well informed 1500 hour pilot would buy into anything they try to spin as an incentive without increasing the pay rates. It would actually be a little insulting to those pilots to see yet another "incentive" to work at XYZ Airlines.
I mean creative in the since of doing what republic is doing. In their email to their pilots they reference the 1500hr rule several times and even go as far as giving a "hypothetical" scenario involving reducing the faa requirements to 500hrs.

They will be creative and try to pressure congress and the faa to reduce the 1500hrs.
 
I mean creative in the since of doing what republic is doing. In their email to their pilots they reference the 1500hr rule several times and even go as far as giving a "hypothetical" scenario involving reducing the faa requirements to 500hrs.

They will be creative and try to pressure congress and the faa to reduce the 1500hrs.


If the airlines are going to spin the pilot shortage on the public, than I sure as heck hope the pilots spin any attempt to reduce the 1500hr rule as a serious impact to safety.
 
If the airlines are going to spin the pilot shortage on the public, than I sure as heck hope the pilots spin any attempt to reduce the 1500hr rule as a serious impact to safety.
They'll get a 250hr wonder to go on TV and talk about all the schooling he's done and how he deserves a 737, but now because of the big bad government, he can't do it tomorrow.
 
I agree, terrible product! But it's terrible due to many more reasons than just using 135 cargo to build SIC time. It's terrible due to the initial training and other factors.

If US carriers were to do this (not saying they will) then the regulations and requirements could produce a much higher quality product.

Just because Ford produces a poor product, doesn't mean other auto makers SHOULD NOT use the assembly line.
It's also terrible because you're not building any skills by acting as ballast.
 
It's also terrible because you're not building any skills by acting as ballast.
At least you would be visualizing and participating in all kinds of weather and different approaches. Instead of shooting the same 4-6 approaches locally every day for 2 years as an instructor. Or acting as ballast while your student does touch and goes for 2 hours.

Of course instructing is good. And I'm not downing it. It just happens to be the most logical comparison when discussing how to build the 1500 hrs. And I personally feel that an sic position with a 135 cargo would be better all around experience.

By the way...I've talked to instructors who have close to 1500 hrs but are screwed because they hardly get any cross country time instructing. Hardly any real IFR other than the local approaches. Even most of their IFR cross country flights with students tend to be to a limited amount of airports. So they end up with 1500 hours, 200 xc, 30night, maybe 100 IFR with only 15 actual IMC. Have shot MAYBE 30 different approaches but 1000 times. Landed at MAYBE 10-15 different airports. Talked to less than 5-10 "centers".

It's obviously the most logical way to build time and you get very proficient with your skills. However, if the airlines arranged a solid training program and agreement with 135 cargo, they would get a high quality product. Pilots would have built 1250+- hrs of dealing with hard IFR, weather planning, enroute procedures, logistics, atc delays, changing weight and balance, icing, mechanical delays, and a host of other real world experience.

Just loose the idea of what the Asian or Korean pilots currently do with ameriflight. What if it was reformed and monitored by us carriers? Why wouldn't it produce great, experienced pilots?
 
There is something to be said for being a CFI. You learn a lot more than just how to sit there. You are reinforcing the fundamentals that will last you the rest of your career. You are giving yourself an incredibly strong foundation of the basic stick and rudder skills that might have saved the Colgan crew and all their passengers.
 
They'll get a 250hr wonder to go on TV and talk about all the schooling he's done and how he deserves a 737, but now because of the big bad government, he can't do it tomorrow.

It's like a bad political commercial. I can almost see the black and white images of blurred out jets taxiing on a runway, with bad ATC audio in the background while a narrator says "[Insert politicians name here] hates young pilots".

There is something to be said for being a CFI. You learn a lot more than just how to sit there. You are reinforcing the fundamentals that will last you the rest of your career. You are giving yourself an incredibly strong foundation of the basic stick and rudder skills that might have saved the Colgan crew and all their passengers.

I agree and disagree. While instructing does reinforce your fundamentals, what it also does is cause complacency. I know when I was a CFI, I knew every frequency and radial for every approach at the local airports. Besides dealing with brand new students, nothing was really a challenge anymore, because nothing was new. While I enjoyed my time as a CFI, flying single pilot survey in a beat up 172 did a lot more for me than flying in the local practice area did. Flight planning for trips up and down the East Coast, flying in different and complex airspace, and dealing with various ATC facilities allowed me to slip right into my current job without any hesitation.
 
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Don't mistake what I'm about to say is a "pro-RAH" or a blind supporter of Mr Bedford, but I have met several people that far exceed 1500 hrs that are complete gomers.
There is truth behind what he talks about "meeting the muster."

And to counter @chrisreedrules point, CFIing is kind of back burner quality time building. Something where you manipulate the controls is far more beneficial.
 
Well I guess instructing is what you make of it... I had some students who would come to the states for only a few weeks at a time to fly and we would go on trips to the keys, and up and down the east coast... I would go fly with thunderstorms in the area and in IMC all the time (it is FL after all). Even if I had a PPL student is file and get on top and we would get a block of altitude. And I manipulated the controls plenty every flight. Stalls, steep turns, spins, landings, etc... So I don't know how the rest of you guys did it, but I flew plenty enough to not get "complacent". Try doing a Cxc with a student with lackluster instrument skills for 3 hours in IMC. There is no room for complacency. I stand by what I said. I think CFIng is probably some of the most valuable time I've spent thus far as a pilot. Sure what I do now is more "real world" flying but in no way am I reinforcing the basic principles that will help me stay alive when the feces hits the oscillator.
 
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