Virgin America Pilot Pay Increase

I don't know where this silly idea comes from that pilots should subsidize start-up airlines from their own pockets. I own a small company that has only been in business for 6 years, but I can't pay 70% of what my competition pays just because they're 10 times our size and have been around since the '80s. Labor costs what labor costs. Only idiot pilots who "love" flying are willing to make such silly excuses for undercutting themselves.
 
ATN, you don't own an airline. You can't just use some other business and make the same correlation for an airline. The airline business inherently has much higher fixed costs than most businesses. It's also heavily dependant on fuel prices and experience associated volatility not found in other businesses.

And I don't know when Airtran pilots get Southwest pay, but currently:

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc/airtran_airways


Unless I need new lenses, the new VX payrates meat or beat Airtran's. Not to flex muscles or say we are better, I'm merely trying to prove my point. Did you even look at the payrate numbers before forming your opinion? Honestly VX could pay $300/hr and you'd still complain they are non-union. Your butt hurt over all things not ALPA clouds your vision.

I do consider Airtran as a LCC major when it was a standalone. After the full integration of AAI into SWA, it'll be all SWA. But until then compare how current Airtran rates stack up in comparison to VX.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I don't know where this silly idea comes from that pilots should subsidize start-up airlines from their own pockets. I own a small company that has only been in business for 6 years, but I can't pay 70% of what my competition pays just because they're 10 times our size and have been around since the '80s. Labor costs what labor costs. Only idiot pilots who "love" flying are willing to make such silly excuses for undercutting themselves.
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You mean like Airtran when it was Valujet? Pilots had to buy their own training types to work there. Oh wait so does SWA. That whole subsidizing the airline thing. But supposedly that's okay because SWA pilot are now the highest paid 737 pilots in the country.
 
BobDDuck said:
I know you've moved way, way past this now, but that is kind of ironic coming from somebody who has your history.
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I can see the irony, but this is a bit different. I can see how an 18 year old kid can make a stupid decision out of "love" for flying. But by the time someone is working for a mainline carrier, that sort of childish nonsense should have disappeared. It should be about a rational understanding that this is a career, not a hobby. We shouldn't be subsidizing the companies that we work for.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
ATN, you don't own an airline. You can't just use some other business and make the same correlation for an airline.
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Of course I can. If a company can't compete by paying market wages, then that company doesn't deserve to be in business.

And I don't know when Airtran pilots get Southwest pay, but currently:

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc/airtran_airways
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Those rates appear to be several years outdated. I don't think APC is updating them anymore. Currently a VX copilot makes about 10% less than I do at the same longevity just on pay rates. Add in work rules, retirement, health contribution, etc., and you're lagging behind by at least 25%. That's pretty significant, especially considering that you have no way of bargaining to improve it. But I will agree that VX is getting closer to where they should be. I'm really talking more about the excuses we've heard for years from VX pilots, when their rates were up to 40% below the industry standard.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
You mean like Airtran when it was Valujet? Pilots had to buy their own training types to work there. Oh wait so does SWA. That whole subsidizing the airline thing. But supposedly that's okay because SWA pilot are now the highest paid 737 pilots in the country.
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I never said that that was ok. In fact, I believe I've been pretty clear that I find it to be an abhorrent practice, and I think it's horrible that SWAPA sits idly by and doesn't even bother to voice a word of disagreement with it.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Of course I can. If a company can't compete by paying market wages, then that company doesn't deserve to be in business.
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Yes, I agree. But the previous point still stands, wouldn't you agree? That in the Part 121 passenger airline business in the United States, we have three different tiers. Each tier has its own set of market average rates. The regionals are the third-tier, entry level, and lowest paying jobs. More or less, they offer similar pay throughout the regional market. The second tier is the LCC/Major level which includes Allegiant, Spirit, Frontier, JetBlue, Virgin, Sun Country, AirTran (before fully SWA). Compared to each other, they are more or less competitive in terms of pay. Some are a little lower (Sun Country) some higher (JetBlue). The rest fall in the middle somewhere which includes Frontier and Virgin. The last tier is the first tier airlines which are the legacy airlines paying legacy market wages. These are AA/DL/UAL/HAL/AK.



Those rates appear to be several years outdated. I don't think APC is updating them anymore. Currently a VX copilot makes about 10% less than I do at the same longevity just on pay rates. Add in work rules, retirement, health contribution, etc., and you're lagging behind by at least 25%. That's pretty significant, especially considering that you have no way of bargaining to improve it. But I will agree that VX is getting closer to where they should be. I'm really talking more about the excuses we've heard for years from VX pilots, when their rates were up to 40% below the industry standard.[/quote]

What's the current AirTran 1st, 2nd, and 3rd year FO payrates? Just curious.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Yes, I agree. But the previous point still stands, wouldn't you agree? That in the Part 121 passenger airline business in the United States, we have three different tiers. Each tier has its own set of market average rates.
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Of course I don't agree. That's absurd. It's something you've pulled out of your ass to justify the unjustifiable.

What's the current AirTran 1st, 2nd, and 3rd year FO payrates? Just curious.
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Honestly, I'm too lazy to look them up. I just know that I'm making $105/hr. But that's not really the point. Our pay rates are substandard. We turned these pay rates down numerous times, and didn't accept them until the merger with SWA, and only then because the NMB basically told us that it was either take management's offer, or they were shutting down negotiations to help facilitate the merger. So I'm not holding up our rates as industry-standard. Far from it.
 
Of course I don't agree. That's absurd. It's something you've pulled out of your ass to justify the unjustifiable.
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The proof is everywhere and in abundance. One small example. A Delta flight (Compass ERJ-170/5) from DFW-LGA is what Delta uses. American uses a Boeing 737-800. Both are jets, both flying the same exact route, but are paid vastly different. If you can't accept that there are three different tiers in aviation, each with their own market rates, then maybe sticking to real estate is better for you.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
If you can't understand why an ERJ commands a different pay rate than a 737-800, then you aren't just a punk, you're functionally retarded.
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I don't.

As a pilot you are doing the same work in an ERJ as you are in a domestic widebody. I still don't see why we accept different pay rates for domestic ops. How many paying bodies management can stuff in the cabin is irrelevant to me.


I know, I know, many moons ago long befrore anyone here was even born the pilot unions conected pilot pay rates to aircraft size when they got those new big DC-3s, but it's a stupid idea.
 
USMCmech said:
I don't.
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You're not an airline pilot, so I'll give you a pass from the functionally retarded label. :)

As a pilot you are doing the same work in an ERJ as you are in a domestic widebody. I still don't see why we accept different pay rates for domestic ops. How many paying bodies management can stuff in the cabin is irrelevant to me. I know, I know, many moons ago long befrore anyone here was even born the pilot unions conected pilot pay rates to aircraft size when they got those new big DC-3s, but it's a stupid idea.
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It's a very simple concept, really. The bigger the airplane, the more responsibility you have and the more revenue that you produce. Pretty much every industry pays more for more responsibility or more revenue produced. Ours is no different.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
It's a very simple concept, really. The bigger the airplane, the more responsibility you have and the more revenue that you produce. Pretty much every industry pays more for more responsibility or more revenue produced. Ours is no different.
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I hear this, but the math doesn't work. For example, a five year Delta 717 guy gets paid $1.04 per seat, but a five year Delta 777 guy gets paid $0.60 per seat. On the flip side, some regional ops get paid more per seat than a narrowbody major. If it were really as simple as you said, the Delta 777 guy should be getting paid somewhere in the $250/hr range rather than the $160/hr range.
 
kellwolf said:
I hear this, but the math doesn't work. For example, a five year Delta 717 guy gets paid $1.04 per seat, but a five year Delta 777 guy gets paid $0.60 per seat. On the flip side, some regional ops get paid more per seat than a narrowbody major. If it were really as simple as you said, the Delta 777 guy should be getting paid somewhere in the $250/hr range rather than the $160/hr range.
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Nobody said it was a linear scale. In any field. But more responsibility still equals more conpensation.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Nobody said it was a linear scale. In any field. But more responsibility still equals more conpensation.
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Do you agree that there should be a hard floor in which certain contracts should abide by? I don't necessarily disagree with you that the larger the airplane the greater risk. I do however see that we all have to abide by the same rules a regulations and for that I think there should be a hard floor in which we should base all of our contracts. I think it is horrible that even within ALPA we have guys who fly the same airplanes to the same places and get different pay. Now that being said I'm not talking about the delta's and the united's. How many CRJ operators are there out there that do the same job yet continue to undercut one another with the approval of our union leadership? These are the things that make me mad with our association.
 
Didn't CCAir not have their contract signed by national because it was thought to lower the bar?

I know you are going to ask me where is CCAir now but it's a legitimate question.
 
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