Jet Blue blames WX, pilot rest rules for system meltdown

SteveC said:
The math on that one isn't working for me, unless I'm not understanding you correctly. They should be staffed high enough to allow everyone that has PTO time take Christmas off?
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Why should it matter what day of the year? If you have time off, you should be able to ask for it off and for coverage to be fine. Still doesn't mean you need a policy for a abusers. Start with a policy that rewards employees for showing up at work on the traditional holidays.

@PhilosopherPilot : at my company, you are in violation of sick policy if you call in sick for a spouse or child's illness to take care of them. You can take personal days, unpaid, if there is staffing.
 
exneophyte said:
Is there such a thing as holiday pay for working on the holiday with the airlines?

I can say having witnessed my wife's nursing career that offering 2X or even 3X pay on the holiday turns that holiday shift into a coveted one instead of a dreaded one with the hospital ending up with more volunteers than needed. However, in a union environment all of this has to be negotiated at contract time.
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We have double pay on holidays.
 
cencal83406 said:
Why should it matter what day of the year? If you have time off, you should be able to ask for it off and for coverage to be fine. Still doesn't mean you need a policy for a abusers. Start with a policy that rewards employees for showing up at work on the traditional holidays.

@PhilosopherPilot : at my company, you are in violation of sick policy if you call in sick for a spouse or child's illness to take care of them. You can take personal days, unpaid, if there is staffing.
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I've called out for the kid being sick before. You've gotta do what you've gotta do. But we have a way to do that at JetBlue. It's coded as "emergency," and the time comes out of your PTO.
 
If your kid is sick then one may be to stressed to fly so you should be able to use your sick time for that.

I certainly hope JetBlue didn't develop their sick policy because of circumstances like that.
 
cencal83406 said:
Why is the company wasting its money giving workers PTO, sick time, AND vacation? That's the real problem here.
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I completely agree. I don't care if you call it "orgy time." At the end of the day, the company is paying you even though you aren't doing the job they hired you to do on that particular day.

I know of several companies (not in aviation) that don't do benefits like sick time or PTO. Instead of giving you PTO, they just include the value of those days off in your salary. Let's say you make $200/day and the industry average is giving 10 days PTO per year. They just give you the $2000 in your paycheck. For them, if you work...you get paid. If you don't work...you don't get paid.

The company saves the administrative overhead of keeping track of the days. The workers get the cash. Some like it, some don't.
 
exneophyte said:
I completely agree. I don't care if you call it "orgy time." At the end of the day, the company is paying you even though you aren't doing the job they hired you to do on that particular day.

I know of several companies (not in aviation) that don't do benefits like sick time or PTO. Instead of giving you PTO, they just include the value of those days off in your salary. Let's say you make $200/day and the industry average is giving 10 days PTO per year. They just give you the $2000 in your paycheck. For them, if you work...you get paid. If you don't work...you don't get paid.

The company saves the administrative overhead of keeping track of the days. The workers get the cash. Some like it, some don't.
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That's the way we operate. We still get vacation days but those are used at our leisure. Call in sick or need a day off, the extra guy covers it.

We are still understaffed though. 7 guys, 24/7 operation, 6/3 schedule. Currently 5 of the 7 have 3 weeks of vacation a year, with the other 2 having 2 weeks. Add in 4 of us with 7 and 3 day training events the other 3 with 3 day training events and you get 182 days total. Take out the "extra" guys vacation and training and there are 151 days AT A MINIMUM that need to be covered by one extra guy, along with his other duties.
 
Dugie8 said:
That's the way we operate. We still get vacation days but those are used at our leisure. Call in sick or need a day off, the extra guy covers it.

We are still understaffed though. 7 guys, 24/7 operation, 6/3 schedule. Currently 5 of the 7 have 3 weeks of vacation a year, with the other 2 having 2 weeks. Add in 4 of us with 7 and 3 day training events the other 3 with 3 day training events and you get 182 days total. Take out the "extra" guys vacation and training and there are 151 days AT A MINIMUM that need to be covered by one extra guy, along with his other duties.
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So if my math is right, the staffing formula allows for 4.4 extra days off per person per year. (182-151)/7. To me that seems even a little low for a corporate office job where you can "tough it out". It seems REALLY low given a pilots need to actually be fairly healthy to safely fly the plane.
 
cencal83406 said:
Why is the company wasting its money giving workers PTO, sick time, AND vacation? That's the real problem here.
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PTO is your sick time and vacation. I'm not 100% sure how the vacation works, just because I haven't used it yet.

So yeah, if you call out EMER, it's paid from your PTO, which is the same place you are paid for a sick call. Frankly, it's really really easy to call out for a trip. That's part of the reason abuse was so rampant. :)
 
exneophyte said:
So if my math is right, the staffing formula allows for 4.4 extra days off per person per year. (182-151)/7. To me that seems even a little low for a corporate office job where you can "tough it out". It seems REALLY low given a pilots need to actually be fairly healthy to safely fly the plane.
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Preaching to the choir brother. I've done my carpet dance for calling fatigued. Other guys too for calling sick because it was there last night shift (honestly sick, should have called out a shift or two earlier).
 
Dugie8 said:
Preaching to the choir brother. I've done my carpet dance for calling fatigued. Other guys too for calling sick because it was there last night shift (honestly sick, should have called out a shift or two earlier).
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Are you a 7-day a week operation? If so, that makes it even worse.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
PTO is your sick time and vacation. I'm not 100% sure how the vacation works, just because I haven't used it yet.

So yeah, if you call out EMER, it's paid from your PTO, which is the same place you are paid for a sick call. Frankly, it's really really easy to call out for a trip. That's part of the reason abuse was so rampant. :)
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Are you guys having trouble with all trips, holiday trips, or a mix?

Why is the holiday pay idea falling on deaf ears? You will have people falling all over themselves to work on holidays...

Why do you have to start with a punitive policy? I mean, you might as well specify that you HAVE to be the one who is sick.

To take a page out of your book, I think it is unethical to skip work if your immediate family is sick. You have an obligation. If you want family, do it on your own time, not at a time you are expected to be at work.
 
exneophyte said:
Are you a 7-day a week operation? If so, that makes it even worse.
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EMS. Now, I flew 255 hours last year, no RONs save for the training and some random MX events. BUT, the being on the hook for basically 7 out of 9 days (6/3 schedule with the last shift being a night shift that goes until 0730 on your first day off) is getting tough.
 
cencal83406 said:
To take a page out of your book, I think it is unethical to skip work if your immediate family is sick. You have an obligation. If you want family, do it on your own time, not at a time you are expected to be at work.
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Ok, you joined in late in the conversation. One guy said ANY attendance policy is unsafe. I think that's false on its face, given that pretty much every airline in the world has some sort of reliability policy. My only point is that a policy can be created that both discourages abuse and is not unsafe. It's not impossible.

As far as the quoted text above, nice try. There's a huge difference in calling out for the hell of it vs calling out because your kid is sick. If you don't understand that, well, there's not much else to say here.
 
[quote="To take a page out of your book, I think it is unethical to skip work if your immediate family is sick. You have an obligation. If you want family, do it on your own time, not at a time you are expected to be at work.[/quote]

Holy cow. That's all kinds of messed up. Whoever said it, not sure if that's what you think. It looks like you're paraphrasing someone else? Anyhow, that's a pretty crappy view on work and family.
 
cencal83406 said:
Why is the holiday pay idea falling on deaf ears? You will have people falling all over themselves to work on holidays...
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Out here the rampers and gate agents get 250% pay on holidays. The FAs get 200%. On Christmas, the JUNIOR stew had 18 years at the company and the most senior had 45 years.

Pilots? We get regular every day straight pay.
 
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