To ODP, or not to ODP, that is the question.
- Thread starter MNFlyboy
- Start date
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
There are notes on that approach (I think) that basically say that continuing past the missed approach point does not guarantee you any sort of terrain clearance in the event of a balked landing.
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
That's my point.
z987k
Well-Known Member
There has to be something, I just can't remember the words used verbatim.
Every single day in the summer American would take off out of JAC in the 75 with some sort of climb in VMC, through 15,000, contact center. I highly doubt they're allowed to take off VFR and get a clearance with center en-route.
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
That's "waiving" atc IFR seperation not obstruction. Keep in mind just because you here someone do it doesn't make it legal.
You can't see and avoid for obstacles under 135 or 121. The reg is 135.379 (I think). I believe 121s version is almost verbatim on the language.
This is for pax ops and part 23 jets.
121.189
Notice no mention of VMC or IMC or VFR or IFR.
z987k
Well-Known Member
I'm fully aware of that, but when I hear it day in day out with presumably different crews, either someone invented something and everyone knew it and willfully disobeyed the FARs(unlikely), or there was something to it.
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
ATC doesn't have to "police" you depending on your operation part. Just like maintaining your own obstruction clearance when below the MVA, etc.
I've never seen nor been trained to do VMC climbs on departure. The regs don't allow it per performance requirements and I would be willing to bet there is no OpSpec allowing it.
Now a particular airline may have a special procedure or operation requirement that has been scrutinized and approved by the Feds but the would almost certainly not allow the waiving of obstacle clearance standards. My OpSpecs specifically require that 135.379 be met even if departing VFR. I can only depart VFR if I cannot get my clearance on the ground. In this day and age that is a pretty tough caveat to ignore.
I've never seen nor been trained to do VMC climbs on departure. The regs don't allow it per performance requirements and I would be willing to bet there is no OpSpec allowing it.
Now a particular airline may have a special procedure or operation requirement that has been scrutinized and approved by the Feds but the would almost certainly not allow the waiving of obstacle clearance standards. My OpSpecs specifically require that 135.379 be met even if departing VFR. I can only depart VFR if I cannot get my clearance on the ground. In this day and age that is a pretty tough caveat to ignore.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
Well, actually, there are specific "for a climb in VFR conditions" rules at some airports:
MC GRATH, AK
MC GRATH (MCG) (PAMC)
AMDT 2A 13178(FAA)
TAKEOFF MINIMUMS: Rwy 8, std. w/ min. climb of 425'
per NM to 2200, or 2300-3 for climb in visual conditions.
Rwy 16, std. w/ min. climb of 470' per NM to 1700, or
2300-3 for climb in visual conditions. Rwy 26, std. w/
min. climb of 435' per NM to 2200, or 2300-3 for climb in
visual conditions. Rwy 34, std. w/ min. climb of 420' per
NM to 2200, or 2300-3 for climb in visual conditions.
DEPARTURE PROCEDURE: Rwy 8, climb via heading
075° to 2200, then climbing right turn thence. . .
or for climb in visual conditions: cross Mc Grath Airport
at or above 2200, thence. . .
Rwy 16, climb via heading 160° to 1700, then climbing
left turn via heading 014° thence. . .
or for climb in visual conditions: cross Mc Grath Airport
at or above 2200, thence. . .
Rwy 26, climb via heading 255° to 2200, then climbing
right turn direct MCG VORTAC or VTR NDB, thence. . .
or for climb in visual conditions: cross Mc Grath Airport
at or above 2200, thence. . .
Rwy 34, climb via heading 340° to 2200, then climbing
right turn heading 166° to MCG R-104 or direct VTR
NDB thence. . .
or for climb in visual conditions: cross Mc Grath Airport
at or above 2200, thence. . .
. . .climb to 4000 southeast bound via MCG R-104, or
100° bearing from VTR NDB. Aircraft southeast bound
(079° clockwise 119°) continue climb on course to MEA
for route of flight. All others reverse course via the MCG
R-104 to MCG VORTAC, or 280° course to VTR NDB,
then continue climb on course to MEA for route of flight.
NOTE: Rwy 8, tower 532' from DER, 368' right of
centerline, up to 60' AGL/400' MSL. Rwy 16, trees
beginning 2.2 NM from DER, 2392' left of centerline, up
to 80' AGL/1346' MSL.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
I know for a fact that Alaska Airlines is allowed to do some VFR work
Cessnaflyer
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Haha don't need an answer. I read my post again and it came off wrong. Didn't mean to say you were a big jet jockey duff.
Most small airports we go into have this restriction so we would have to either circle over the airport to join the missed procedures or continue on missed if we just passed the MAP.
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
Ok, let me put this in "order".
Rules of engagement
1. Part 135 (Im most familiar with)
2. Large turbine powered aircraft (beechjet, Hawker, 757, etc)
3. Pax Ops
First question
Do you have to fly the ODP?
Yes
Reference:91.175(f)(4)
Subpart I of 135 is 135.379, specifically 135.379(d)(2)
Those two regs preclude you from taking off "VMC" and ignoring an ODP or performance requirements to clear the obstacles by the amounts shown in 135.379. Many refer to this as "see and avoid" or as @ppragman posted above, "crossing the airport in visual conditions". Remember, there are many things on a chart that don't apply to you in your specific operation (RVR values for landing and takeoff, LPV mins, etc). OpSpec C077 subpart (f) is the controlling OpSpec that will require you to meet performance requirements under part 135 for VFR departures. In this case the VFR departure is only allowed if you cannot get your IFR clearance from ATC, then you must get it within 50 NM, maintain basic VFR, yadda yadda yadda.
Clear as mud?
Rules of engagement
1. Part 135 (Im most familiar with)
2. Large turbine powered aircraft (beechjet, Hawker, 757, etc)
3. Pax Ops
First question
Do you have to fly the ODP?
Yes
Reference:91.175(f)(4)
Subpart I of 135 is 135.379, specifically 135.379(d)(2)
Those two regs preclude you from taking off "VMC" and ignoring an ODP or performance requirements to clear the obstacles by the amounts shown in 135.379. Many refer to this as "see and avoid" or as @ppragman posted above, "crossing the airport in visual conditions". Remember, there are many things on a chart that don't apply to you in your specific operation (RVR values for landing and takeoff, LPV mins, etc). OpSpec C077 subpart (f) is the controlling OpSpec that will require you to meet performance requirements under part 135 for VFR departures. In this case the VFR departure is only allowed if you cannot get your IFR clearance from ATC, then you must get it within 50 NM, maintain basic VFR, yadda yadda yadda.
Clear as mud?
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
Wait, so you have to do the ODP, unless the ODP says to climb visually, in which case you're SOL?
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
You have to fly the ODP, some ODPs specify that you can climb in Visual conditions - you may have an OpSpec prohibiting that (most small airplane 135s don't)
z987k
Well-Known Member
Or if you intend to be VFR and stay VFR I presume? Or are you guys just not allowed to fly VFR?
SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
You can take off 121 in VFR conditions and pick up your IFR clearance airborne.
JustinS
Well-Known Member
Where did you get this from, and have you ever carried this out in a missed approach passed the MAP situation before? I have never heard this before. Is this strictly a 121/135 requirement?
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
Your obstacle clearance on the missed is based off you maneuvering at the MAP. Anything after that is "no mans land".
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
I imagine the OpSpec is the same. What does C077(f) say?
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
I think it's an airline specific thing. I was never taught or trained it at 3 airlines??
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