Forbes Article on Regional Pilot Pay vs McDonalds Pay

TFaudree_ERAU said:
I think you forgot the part about the guys at the majors saying they were too good to fly 50 seat RJs.
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And why did management want to outsource those airplanes in the first place? Because they could find other pilots willing to fly them for a tiny fraction of what the mainline pilots would have demanded.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not just pointing fingers at others. I was a part of it, too. But until we recognize what has caused the problem, it can't be fixed.
 
I don't recall anyone saying they were "too good" to fly 50 seat RJs. I DO remember a refusal to fly them for absurdly low wages when we already operated airplanes like the F28, Bac1-11, DC9-10, and BAe 146 that were within 20 or 30 seats of the original RJs and we already had pay scales for those...

Look at the E190. They call it an RJ but it weighs 6000 pounds more and carries the same number of pax as a DC9-30.

Nope. RJs are the most successful management land-grab in aviation history.
 
desertdog71 said:
We're all part of the same Hypocrisy. Now keep preaching.

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desertdog71 said:
Like I said before, these calls always come from the sidelines or those who already got theirs.


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Ok, just so I can be clear:

It's possible to get a decent job in this industry without selling yourself short. I've been gainfully employed as a pilot for the past six years, and I don't recall any of them spent at a regional for 20k.

All I've said is that if you go to the regionals for that money, then you're lowering the bar. I never did that, so please point out my hypocrisy. Also, seeing as how I'm currently flying, I don't think I'm sitting on the sidelines. I fly around clapped out piston engine float planes for a living. I would hardly say that I've hit the "big time" by anyone's definition.

The fact of the matter is that there are plenty of people on this very board that are making decent money without ever having to step foot at a regional. There are plenty of avenues to avoid working for crap rages and furthering the race to the bottom, you choose not to see them though.

So go ahead and take your your ready reserve, your commute, your furlough, your buy-outs, and all that other crap for your pittance of a "wage." After all, you get to wear a suite and call yourself an airline pilot. I'm sure you'll even get on here and start complaining about how sloppily other pilots dress, how they don't act with professionalism or dignity, and how passengers don't respect you, never once realizing that its YOUR fault that all that happened.
 
cmill said:
Ok, just so I can be clear:

It's possible to get a decent job in this industry without selling yourself short. I've been gainfully employed as a pilot for the past six years, and I don't recall any of them spent at a regional for 20k.

All I've said is that if you go to the regionals for that money, then you're lowering the bar. I never did that, so please point out my hypocrisy. Also, seeing as how I'm currently flying, I don't think I'm sitting on the sidelines. I fly around clapped out piston engine float planes for a living. I would hardly say that I've hit the "big time" by anyone's definition.

The fact of the matter is that there are plenty of people on this very board that are making decent money without ever having to step foot at a regional. There are plenty of avenues to avoid working for crap rages and furthering the race to the bottom, you choose not to see them though.

So go ahead and take your your ready reserve, your commute, your furlough, your buy-outs, and all that other crap for your pittance of a "wage." After all, you get to wear a suite and call yourself an airline pilot. I'm sure you'll even get on here and start complaining about how sloppily other pilots dress, how they don't act with professionalism or dignity, and how passengers don't respect you, never once realizing that its YOUR fault that all that happened.
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Congratulations

All those other options aren't offering me a job. I don't even want to work Part 121 but its what is available. I've sat the sidelines for 4 years and my only chance to get back in the game is this one.

Glad the breaks went your way.

I have connections that can help me get decent flying work but they can't make my log book say I've flown in the last 4 years. I tried like hell to get a 135 gig that was open only to see it go to a returning former employee.

So now I'm expected to thumb my nose at a regional position because the pay sucks and I'm the reason it sucks? And for what? So you approve of me? Yeah not happening. I'm not doing anything different than thousands already did before me.

So label me the bad guy if you must. My eyes are wide open and its not my first time.

I'm happy you got a cool gig that you enjoy but I'm not going to be crapped on because you don't like my choices.

I'd much rather be flying a Caravan full of rubber dog excrement but they aren't offering.

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desertdog71 said:
Keep trying to twist the facts to make yourself sound good. I'm going to work for the agreed rare that is industry wide. I didn't undercut anyone and I'm not going to sit it out to make you happy.

Your whole analogy is a fallacy because nobody is offering that higher pay. Like I said before, these calls always come from the sidelines or those who already got theirs.

This is the avenue available right now. I'll work to improve it once I'm there but sure not going to sit it out so people on a forum can thump their chests.

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Which regional are you going to? Congrats on the new job!


For what it's worth, I'm a fellow regional guy and I don't think you should 'fall on your sword.' The only jobs we can choose from are those that are currently available. However, please don't be the regional pilot that gets all excited about your company getting shiny new airplanes when they come at the expense of the rest of the industry.

I'm a regional guy who supported the ATP rule before I was qualified or employed, and I'd like to see all regional airlines die a quick and painful death. All I'm really saying is this. Go after that RJ job if you want to. No shame in that. When you get there, please join us in the fight for the improvement of a lousy situation.
 
JustinS said:
It's really sickening to read the comments of customers trying to justify UNLIVABLE pilot wages. All because the "perks" should count so heavily as part of your compensation as an airline pilot. :mad: Sorry, it's not the pilot's fault you decided to have a boring desk job, and that is not adequate justification to get paid at the poverty level.
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The perks do you no good without the means to enjoy them.
 
desertdog71 said:
Glad the breaks went your way.
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Why don't you ask him how many breaks DIDN'T go his way?


Most guys (and gals) I know that chose not to go into the 121 world, including myself, had to move to their toes to start counting the number of breaks that didn't go our way.

Just because we've had fun and interesting jobs that paid well, doesn't mean things always go our way. Every job I've had since being a full time CFI has been because of me going out there cold, knowing THAT is where I want to work and beating on doors telling them why they should hire me until they do. I bugged the charter outfit I now work for, for over a year and a half before they hired me last month. Also, during that year and a half, two other "dream job" opportunities, one of which I had been waiting on for over 2 years for a position to open, completely vanished. If I really needed to fly jeeetttsss I could have gone to CharlieLima's and worked for crap pay, and if they liked me, they would have let me pay for half my own LR35 type...

The funny thing is, every "network connection" to a job through someone I knew (except a couple offers I received here on JC, which I had to graciously decline) ended up in the "didn't go my way" pile.

To each their own. Those who choose to work for a Regional clearly see some sort of value to it other than the money. Actually, the same could be said for most of aviation... But when I could make more as CFI than a 5 year regional FO that has to say something about the industry.

I got into this career because I love to fly and I love aviation. It's more than just a job to me and I respect it as a profession.
 
TwoTwoLeft said:
Why don't you ask him how many breaks DIDN'T go his way?


Most guys (and gals) I know that chose not to go into the 121 world, including myself, had to move to their toes to start counting the number of breaks that didn't go our way.

Just because we've had fun and interesting jobs that paid well, doesn't mean things always go our way. Every job I've had since being a full time CFI has been because of me going out there cold, knowing THAT is where I want to work and beating on doors telling them why they should hire me until they do. I bugged the charter outfit I now work for, for over a year and a half before they hired me last month. Also, during that year and a half, two other "dream job" opportunities, one of which I had been waiting on for over 2 years for a position to open, completely vanished. If I really needed to fly jeeetttsss I could have gone to CharlieLima's and worked for crap pay, and if they liked me, they would have let me pay for half my own LR35 type...

The funny thing is, every "network connection" to a job through someone I knew (except a couple offers I received here on JC, which I had to graciously decline) ended up in the "didn't go my way" pile.

To each their own. Those who choose to work for a Regional clearly see some sort of value to it other than the money. Actually, the same could be said for most of aviation... But when I could make more as CFI than a 5 year regional FO that has to say something about the industry.

I got into this career because I love to fly and I love aviation. It's more than just a job to me and I respect it as a profession.
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You make over $50k as a CFI?
 
ZapBrannigan said:
Look at the E190. They call it an RJ but it weighs 6000 pounds more and carries the same number of pax as a DC9-30.
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This is something I just don't understand at all. How is the 170/190 a regional jet? And how does a jet that size not demand more pay? I flew on a Republic E170 to CLT. Connected onto another 190, and it was mainline Airways. How are you going to tell me that the guys flying the 170 as a regional are just "Paying their dues" or "building experience"? They're flying the same equipment, on the same routes, filled with the same amount of people, yet first year pay for one is $17/hr more?
 
I love it when we have an eight page thread with non-airline pilots talking with other non-airline pilots about how much airlines suck, and how they know because they've never worked at an airline because they all suck.

Logic like this only works on the tubes.
 
Murdoughnut said:
I thought this was impactful:

Why should I pay more for an airline ticket to subsidize someone’s dream of being a pilot?
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Is he aware that a completely embarrassing case of pilot error sent 51 people to their deaths in buffalo?

This idiot should realize that he wants to get to point B alive, then think about how much another 50$ on a ticket is really worth.
 
jtrain609 said:
I love it when we have an eight page thread with non-airline pilots talking with other non-airline pilots about how much airlines suck, and how they know because they've never worked at an airline because they all suck.

Logic like this only works on the tubes.
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I've never been lit on fire either, but I am pretty sure it sucks. We know it sucks because every airline pilot we know in person says it sucks and because making no money for tons of work....sucks universally.

But you're right, let's be quiet and not complain about crummy pay and then take concessions on the next round of BS from management!
 
TWP said:
I've never been lit on fire either, but I am pretty sure it sucks. We know it sucks because every airline pilot we know in person says it sucks and because making no money for tons of work....sucks universally.

But you're right, let's be quiet and not complain about crummy pay and then take concessions on the next round of BS from management!
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Guys in the crew room yesterday were talking about where their overnights were on this trip and how their kids were doing.

I mean, wait! That's not what the Internet says so I must be wrong!

Also, I should add that the only other thing I hear at work is how the company can burn before they take concessions.
 
TWP said:
http://www.businessinsider.com/mcdo...yees-and-make-less-money-2013-7#ixzz2aZHNwoL5
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Interesting idea, but some problems in practice.

First problem - Management has a fiduciary responsibility to shareholders, not employees. Doing so would harm shareholders, so there would certainly be lawsuits from the Widows and Orphans that own McDonald's stock.

Second problem - lower profits mean a lower share price. Once it gets low enough, Carl Icahn or some hedge fund will attempt a leveraged buyout (or a cash buyout - lots of cash these days). They'll install their own board, drop pay, and pay themselves a huge bonus.

Now, that said, the restaurant industry can afford higher wages. They deal with these costs in other countries by increasing prices, and these restaurants still manage to do pretty well. Younger, unskilled workers are the big losers (you know, because when regional pilots realized they can make more at McDonalds...). Better answer is to index minimum wage to inflation in the US, and take politics out of the squabbling over it. It matters less to business when competition has the same costs.
 
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