Forbes Article on Regional Pilot Pay vs McDonalds Pay

I think thats precisely the attitude that leads to such low pay. I'm willing to eat crap also relative to the job. Paying dues or not, pilots are shooting themselves in the foot if they're going to work at an airline for 20k/yr.

It has nothing to do with being self righteous. When someone chooses to go and take that job, for that money, they lower the bar for everyone. As much as I trash regionals, I wouldn't mind giving it a shot. Theres no way in hell though I can do it when it means taking a 65% pay cut on top of giving up and 8 hour duty day, being home every night, and having weekends off, for the "privilege" of strutting around the terminal in a monkey suit and having some girl blog about how its sooooo cool to date me.


Bingo. I'm in the beginning stages of making a run at a pro pilot career, and I'd love to fly 121, but I simply cannot imagine a scenario in which that pans out (especially at my age, 42, with essentially no hours) that does not involve putting my wife and I through an emotional and financial grinder. I can get past the schedule... somebody has to fly the non-desirable routes and schedules. I can definitely see that being a benefit to seniority, and that is pretty typical for many jobs. But the pay? I'd take a 75% haircut. I don't know about anyone else, but as much as I do want to fly jeeeeets, I can't justify that. It seems like there are certainly enough guys out there that have no problem playing limbo to make it happen for themselves, though.

Flying. What a crazy, crazy sickness.
 
having some girl blog about how its sooooo cool to date me.

I'm going to go home tonight and tell my wife I'm thinking about making the jump to the airlines and tell her I listed out the pro's and con's and I'll include this one in the pro's and see what she says. This is gonna be fun!
 
Sorry, I'm just having a difficult time buying this, because a fatigued person can do those jobs. Flying an airplane requires a person to have a personal risk assessment that demands proper rest and eating. QOL can have a huge effect on being able to accomplish both these physical needs.

I didn't say it was fair, but life isn't fair anyway. But that is the way it is.

A doctor can cost a hospital millions for one screw up, but the hospital has no problem having him work an on call 24 hour shift. For a long time, the hospitals paid ZERO to the doctor taking a shift (they only billed patients for follow ups in their own office), or sometimes services provided in the hospital. Many hospitals still pay nothing to on call emergency doctors. Fair? Not really. But that is the way it is.
 
Really?

(That's really a really, not an SNL Seth and Amy really.)


Assuming about 70/hr for CA pay, and factoring in my overtime, yeah. Overtime is used loosely though, considering if I go even one hour over my normal duty day it doubles my pay for the day.
 
Assuming about 70/hr for CA pay, and factoring in my overtime, yeah. Overtime is used loosely though, considering if I go even one hour over my normal duty day it doubles my pay for the day.

That's not too bad for a Cessna! Career job?
 
That's not too bad for a Cessna! Career job?


It's not bad at all. This is my third time working for these guys, and yeah, its starting to look like I might be here a while. I'll prolly never see six figures here, along with some other problems, but after sampling pretty much every other type of aviation job out there I'll take a comfortable pay check with the devil I know rather than chase a fat one with the devil I don't.
 
Yeah. I get told to fall on my sword by two types. Those that already got theirs and those who sit the sidelines. I don't feel compelled to justify my actions to either.

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I think all anyone is saying is don't do a job for less than you're worth. Everyone who made it anywhere started out with crap, for some the crap pay is justified by the plane that they're flying. 24k/yr is justified for bombing around with checks in a 210. I really don't think its justified for hauling 150 people in the back.
 
ok, 90 seats, or even 75 seats. The point is that the pay shouldn't be the same or less than what guys in pistons are making. Either someone is over-paid, or someone is under-paid. I'm sure you can figure it out.
 
I'm taking a temporary pay cut to do a job I enjoy that has WAY better upside than what I do now.



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I'm glad you enjoy it, seriously.

Look at it this way. Lets say I'm in an area with a few king airs and the going rate is 450/day. A new king air owner comes in and says he absolutely won't pay more than 250/day. Theres only a handful of qualified pilots in town, and if none of them fly then he'll have no choice but to pay the going rate. Are you willing to be the guy that lowers the bar for all the pilots around because you enjoy it, and $250>$0?

If you are, then you'll be drinking by yourself at the bar for a loooong time, because before you know it, the other pilots are having to justify why they charge so much more than this other guy who is doing the exact same job. Thankfully it usually doesn't come to that. Guys who undercut other pilots usually don't last long in smaller markets.
 
Keep trying to twist the facts to make yourself sound good. I'm going to work for the agreed rare that is industry wide. I didn't undercut anyone and I'm not going to sit it out to make you happy.

Your whole analogy is a fallacy because nobody is offering that higher pay. Like I said before, these calls always come from the sidelines or those who already got theirs.

This is the avenue available right now. I'll work to improve it once I'm there but sure not going to sit it out so people on a forum can thump their chests.

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I've worked a lot of different jobs as a professional pilot, except instructing, surprisingly, and now I find myself at a regional.

Here's what I know for sure: I've always loved flying and I know that in order to be happy, I'm going to have be involved in flying on some level for a career.

And this is what my experience has taught me thus far: If I fly corporate, my pay is quite good, but my job security is incredibly tenuous depending on factors like the economy and whether or not the owner accidentally kills himself while skiing in Aspen. If I work aircraft sales, I make great money but I spend 90% of my time in an office on a phone which is not conducive to my happiness. If I fly 135 freight, I make not-so-great money flying into the same 10 podunk airports and I find my QOL suffers.

So now I'm making crappy money at a regional, but I genuinely enjoy the flying and the people and my family has flight benefits on several different airlines. And living in domicile makes every day on reserve practically feel like a Saturday. And someday soon, I reckon I'll make a living wage.

All that said, it would be great to make more money in the first year or two, but we know what we're getting going into this gig.
 
I suppose, but how much did it cost Colgan when they lost a Q400, 4 trained crew members, and 45 passengers? The cost incurred could potentially justify spending a little bit more to mitigate risk of such an expensive loss... I would think that for a pilot to bring his/her A game, the airline might want to consider how they treat their pilot groups. However, we bump into this problem that pilots take jobs to fulfill their life long dreams, and are willing to sacrifice QOL to do it. So it seems that until airlines start having to park planes because pilots aren't willing to put up with the poor QOL then the airlines will keep milking pilots for all they're worth...

So you think that making more money would have enabled that crew to recognize and recover from a stall?
 
This is all really simple. The labor market determines the wage, regardless of safety, responsibility, or anything else that you want to pretend is relevant. Unions play a part in that labor market, and they do drive wages up from where they would otherwise be, but they aren't a panacea. Ultimately, the willingness of people to fly a jet for $20/hr is why airlines only pay $20/hr. And why are people willing to fly for $20/hr? Because they think it will get better down the road when they move up to the majors. But the problem is, those wages at the regionals are driving down wages at the majors, so pilots have created a vicious cycle that perpetually drives wages further down, making that low-paying regional job less and less worthwhile. Alaska Airlines just bragged to investors the other day that even with the brand new pilot contract that contained significant raises, their labor costs are only marginally higher than they were 10 years ago. And that's not even adjusted for inflation, so in real dollars, their costs are actually less than they were 10 years ago.

The only thing that can stop the cycle is for people to stop accepting work at such crappy wages. The new rules that require an ATP help, but only slightly. Ultimately, a path to ATP minimums will become standard for anyone getting into the industry, and they won't bat an eye at the added extreme cost of getting there. Instead of it costing $100k to get to the point of being employable, people will spend $250k to get to that point, and they'll continue to justify it by saying "it gets better later, so it's worth it."

Until the well of people willing to live like paupers for that chance of being a 767 pilots dries up, it will only get worse. There will be peaks and valleys in compensation (right now we're on the upslope), but each peak won't be as high as the previous one, and each valley will be lower than the previous one. The overall trend will continue to get worse. Sorry to be a buzz-kill, but we're doing it to ourselves.
 
So you think that making more money would have enabled that crew to recognize and recover from a stall?

A lot of things lead up to that occurring... Now how they didn't attempt to recover from the stall correctly opens up a whole other can of worms akin to why the Asiana pilots didn't recognize their low energy state... (Training issues...) I think it's possible more money (both pilot pay, and sim training expenses) may have meant a more well rested in base crew with potentially better training.
 
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