Landing Incident @ SFO

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Seggy said:
If anything this is going to make the case (once again) why cabatoge is BAD.
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Thats an interesting angle I hadn't considered, and a very accurate one.

In a smaller application, it's kind of what akin to what we see down here on the border area with Mexico trucks that transport across the border and into the US under NAFTA. Not speaking on driver experience and training, as I don't personally delve into that all that deep (that's the State Police commercial enforcement people), but just seeing the differences in equipment of the trucks themselves, and wondering how they appear to pass safety inspections overall.

ATN_Pilot, you need to press a certain someone this week to make it clear to those inside the beltway to put the safety cultures and a lack of a high level of training environment exist with these airlines.
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Like has been mentioned, culture from the land does extend into the cockpits of these airliners. I saw it with the ROKAF when I was over there, and I don't think it's too different in the airline culture of many of these countries.
 
Curiously, only because I haven't been following, but is cabotage even remotely something being considered by congress, or are there active entities pushing for it currently?
 
MikeD said:
Thats an interesting angle I hadn't considered, and a very accurate one.

In a smaller application, it's kind of what akin to what we see down here on the border area with Mexico trucks that transport across the border and into the US under NAFTA. Not speaking on driver experience and training, as I don't personally delve into that all that deep (that's the State Police commercial enforcement people), but just seeing the differences in equipment of the trucks themselves, and wondering how they appear to pass safety inspections overall.



Like has been mentioned, culture from the land does extend into the cockpits of these airliners. I saw it with the ROKAF when I was over there, and I don't think it's too different in the airline culture of many of these countries.
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Two great examples from a friend who flew for a large Korean airline...

When they were hired for their contract gig, they had to take an English Proficiency exam. They would listen to a recording and be expected to write what the recording said. Not a problem for the 'Mericans. When they got into the room they noticed on the desks they were taking the exams on the answers were written neatly, word for word on the desks. Turns out, that the Koreans were afraid that the Captains would have trouble taking the exam when it was required a few years ago for the ICAO English Proficient Endorsement so the answers were provided for them.

During his oral for the Airbus 330, he would be was asked a question and the answer was blue hydraulic system. However, the Korean Check Airman due to his spotty English and what the manuals (that were converted from French to Korean to English), insisted it was the blue hydraulic line. Frankly, it doesn't matter, call it system, or line, my friend knew the answer. Basically, they would be anal if you called it 'line' vs. 'system' instead if the applicant can keep the dirty side facing down when poo hits the fan.
 
Seggy said:
Didn't see the whole conference, just the report of what was said, because if you are at 118 knots in a 777 at 200 feet, your descent rate is going to be abnormal.
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I just figure if one data point good the other would be close. It's just math at that point.
 
MikeD said:
Curiously, only because I haven't been following, but is cabotage even remotely something being considered by congress, or are there active entities pushing for it currently?
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There are entities VERY actively pushing for cabotage. To give you an example on how entrenched they want to become, when the New York Yankees were offering airlines to sponsor to become 'The Official Airline of the New York Yankees', Delta was competing with Emirates Airlines for that sponsorship. Take a look at the European Soccer teams and who is sponsoring them.

I heard a talk from the Arab States version of the Airline for America lobbying group and it was scary to hear his view on the world in terms of their expansion. They are actively pushing in DC for a change to the laws and are starting political action committees etc. Here is why this is scary. Canada wanted to restrict access of Emeriti Airlines to the Canadian market to avoid an over saturation. The UAE didn't appreciate this so they threatened to kick all Canadian troops out of the UAE. This was a blackmail attempt from the UAE to allow access to their markets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada–United_Arab_Emirates_aviation_dispute

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11519479

So while Congress, so far, has seen why Cabotage is bad, we as American pilots need to be educated on this, kept informed, be involved, and understand why this is a threat to our livelihoods.
 
Seggy said:
There are entities VERY actively pushing for cabotage. To give you an example on how entrenched they want to become, when the New York Yankees were offering airlines to sponsor to become 'The Official Airline of the New York Yankees', Delta was competing with Emirates Airlines for that sponsorship. Take a look at the European Soccer teams and who is sponsoring them.

I heard a talk from the Arab States version of the Airline for America lobbying group and it was scary to hear his view on the world in terms of their expansion. They are actively pushing in DC for a change to the laws and are starting political action committees etc. Here is why this is scary. Canada wanted to restrict access of Emeriti Airlines to the Canadian market to avoid an over saturation. The UAE didn't appreciate this so they threatened to kick all Canadian troops out of the UAE. This was a blackmail attempt from the UAE to allow access to their markets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada–United_Arab_Emirates_aviation_dispute

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11519479

So while Congress, so far, has seen why Cabotage is bad, we as American pilots need to be educated on this, kept informed, be involved, and understand why this is a threat to our livelihoods.
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It's rather easy without labor laws and when the government buys the airplanes, no?
 
Seggy said:
If anything this is going to make the case (once again) why cabatoge is BAD.

ATN_Pilot, you need to press a certain someone this week to make it clear to those inside the beltway to put the safety cultures and a lack of a high level of training environment with these airlines on high display.
Click to expand...



Why would this show cabotage is bad? Because there was an accident induced by pilot error? Just trying to understand your viewpoint.
 
pullup said:
Why would this show cabotage is bad? Because there was an accident induced by pilot error? Just trying to understand your viewpoint.
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Because the history of the multi-pilot cockpit in Korea is riddled with stunning safety issues relating to the breakdown or non-existence of CRM, mainly attributed to how their culture views authority figures and what the place is of those in lesser, but necessary roles under their command.
 
pullup said:
Why would this show cabotage is bad? Because there was an accident induced by pilot error? Just trying to understand your viewpoint.
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The lack of safety cultures and a high level training environment that exist in these airlines. Post 686 shows a specific example from a large Korean Airline, but can translate to another airline in another country with a different culture than we have here in the United States.
 
If anyone wants to read an example of what I mentioned two posts above, and what Seggy has described in several posts in the last few of this thread, read through this audit of Korean Airlines in 1998. From a pilot I know who's brother is a captain at KAL, they've come a long way and have made vast improvements since the 90s. Perhaps Asiana is lagging behind? Or at least, has yet to achieve consistently good CRM on every single combination of crews?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...=5YOF-x4OCmV2HB0CAsXkcA&bvm=bv.48705608,d.eWU
 
Seggy said:
There are entities VERY actively pushing for cabotage. To give you an example on how entrenched they want to become, when the New York Yankees were offering airlines to sponsor to become 'The Official Airline of the New York Yankees', Delta was competing with Emirates Airlines for that sponsorship. Take a look at the European Soccer teams and who is sponsoring them.

I heard a talk from the Arab States version of the Airline for America lobbying group and it was scary to hear his view on the world in terms of their expansion. They are actively pushing in DC for a change to the laws and are starting political action committees etc. Here is why this is scary. Canada wanted to restrict access of Emeriti Airlines to the Canadian market to avoid an over saturation. The UAE didn't appreciate this so they threatened to kick all Canadian troops out of the UAE. This was a blackmail attempt from the UAE to allow access to their markets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada–United_Arab_Emirates_aviation_dispute

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11519479

So while Congress, so far, has seen why Cabotage is bad, we as American pilots need to be educated on this, kept informed, be involved, and understand why this is a threat to our livelihoods.
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Follow the money. And the foreigners seem to have no trouble playing hardball in that regard when it comes to getting more greenbacks, and more market expansion.

Curiously, and only because this is local to me so I wonder: British Airways flies into PHX. Coming from London in a 744, they stop at JFK enroute to here. Does this mean that no one boards at JFK and flies to PHX on that flight? Or the reverse...no one boards at PHX, and deplanes at JFK...that they must be on the full international route to London?
 
Nick said:
Because the history of the multi-pilot cockpit in Korea is riddled with stunning safety issues relating to the breakdown or non-existence of CRM, mainly attributed to how their culture views authority figures and what the place is of those in lesser, but necessary roles under their command.
Click to expand...

Seggy said:
The lack of safety cultures and a high level training environment that exist in these airlines. Post 686 shows a specific example from a large Korean Airline, but can translate to another airline in another country with a different culture than we have here in the United States.
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I wouldn't say that is limited to non-US airlines, Pinnacle 3701 and Colgan 3407 are two recent examples. Would you classify them differently?
 
Offer a better product to your customers (like not making me sit on the remains of a RJ seat cushion long past its overhaul date for two hours) and the cabotage situation would probably sort itself out.
 
TFaudree_ERAU said:
Offer a better product to your customers (like not making me sit on the remains of a RJ seat cushion long past its overhaul date for two hours) and the cabotage situation would probably sort itself out.
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Emirates would probably run an A350 or similar from PHX to IGM, putting Great Lakes out of business. Money seems to be of no consequence.
 
MikeD said:
Follow the money. And the foreigners seem to have no trouble playing hardball in that regard when it comes to getting more greenbacks, and more market expansion.

Curiously, and only because this is local to me so I wonder: British Airways flies into PHX. Coming from London in a 744, they stop at JFK enroute to here. Does this mean that no one boards at JFK and flies to PHX on that flight? Or the reverse...no one boards at PHX, and deplanes at JFK...that they must be on the full international route to London?
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Not sure if they can or can't sell tickets on that specific JFK to PHX route.
 
pullup said:
I wouldn't say that is limited to non-US airlines, Pinnacle 3701 and Colgan 3407 are two recent examples. Would you classify them differently?
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No the safety cultures of those two airlines were horrific. Very similiar cultures to ones we see overseas.

Notice how Pinnacle and Colgan don't really exist anymore?
 
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