CLT runway incursion. It's okay to raise your voice.

She cleared 390 for T/O and gave 9DR a position and hold instruction, although she didn't say "taxi into". "Line up and wait" didn't happen until Sep of 10 and of course this is May 09. Seems the controller wasn't clear, unless I'm missing something. I guess this is a good lesson to look both ways regardless and also listen as much as you can. 9DR might have been able to hear the clearance given for 390 just prior to their own instructions and maybe realize the conflict. Of course hind sight is 20/20 and I know I mostly listen for my call sign, tough to keep track of everyone else.
 
"Behind the departing RJ, runway 18L, line up and wait."

I fail to see why the FAA is so up tight about adopting that methodology.
 
She cleared 390 for T/O and gave 9DR a position and hold instruction, although she didn't say "taxi into". "Line up and wait" didn't happen until Sep of 10 and of course this is May 09. Seems the controller wasn't clear, unless I'm missing something. I guess this is a good lesson to look both ways regardless and also listen as much as you can. 9DR might have been able to hear the clearance given for 390 just prior to their own instructions and maybe realize the conflict. Of course hind sight is 20/20 and I know I mostly listen for my call sign, tough to keep track of everyone else.
If I remember that intersection correctly you can't see the end of 18L because it's beyond the crest of the hill and with the angle of that taxiway it'd be hard to see from the left seat of a Pilatus.
 

One of my more favorite vids..

On another note, MSP tower almost put me on top of an RJ. We were short final 30L (over the river for those that know MSP) when they cleared someone for take off. Well, knew that wasn't going to work, hand on the power levers and wait for the call, cause we are going around.
 
Yeah, if you can't see down there, than it would be tough. My only point really was to be on your toes as much as possible, but even that won't prevent things out of your control or sight, as the case may be.
 
She cleared 390 for T/O and gave 9DR a position and hold instruction, although she didn't say "taxi into". "Line up and wait" didn't happen until Sep of 10 and of course this is May 09. Seems the controller wasn't clear, unless I'm missing something.

"Position and hold" is pretty clear to me. Considering risks associated with intersection take-offs, I'm surprised one of the crews didn't catch the possible conflict. Knowing that folks perk up when they hear their call sign, I often use non-standard calls in this situation, much to the disdain of controllers. I'll read back a clearance and add, "understand Pilatus409 is holding short of my 18L". I usually get an answer that also mentions Pilatus409, plus my original clearance, which I confirm.
 
"Position and hold" is pretty clear to me. Considering risks associated with intersection take-offs, I'm surprised one of the crews didn't catch the possible conflict. Knowing that folks perk up when they hear their call sign, I often use non-standard calls in this situation, much to the disdain of controllers. I'll read back a clearance and add, "understand Pilatus409 is holding short of my 18L". I usually get an answer that also mentions Pilatus409, plus my original clearance, which I confirm.


I agree, it is clear to me as well. I just wonder if she was clear on what she was instructing the Pilatus to do. Usually (but not required??) the Position and Hold instruction is preceded by "taxi into" which I think she omitted. I wonder if she thought she was telling the Pilatus to Hold Short but used the wrong phraseology? In which case, if there is any doubt on my part or notice a conflict, your advice to confirm is spot on, especially at an intersection with landing and departing traffic.
 
I agree, it is clear to me as well. I just wonder if she was clear on what she was instructing the Pilatus to do. Usually (but not required??) the Position and Hold instruction is preceded by "taxi into" which I think she omitted. I wonder if she thought she was telling the Pilatus to Hold Short but used the wrong phraseology? In which case, if there is any doubt on my part or notice a conflict, your advice to confirm is spot on, especially at an intersection with landing and departing traffic.

I think she just forgot she had an intersection departure on the shelf. It sounds like she thought the PC-12 was following the Bluestreak.
 
If I remember that intersection correctly you can't see the end of 18L because it's beyond the crest of the hill and with the angle of that taxiway it'd be hard to see from the left seat of a Pilatus.

Not exactly the same thing, but I really get nervous going into LGA. You'll be doing the expressway visual 31, hear them clear someone to take off on runway 4, but once you get low enough the terminal blocks your view on how far along the other plane is.
 
She was speaking faster than her mind could think! Geeze! Tough job, I know, but geeze! Slow it down a tenth of a second.

I had to listen to her instruction to 9DR at least 10x before figuring out the words uttered before "Position and Hold 18L."

Those were the only words I would hear! I'm sure those were the only words the crew of 9DR heard as well.

I'm very interested in reading the opinons of active ATC's on this site about this.
 
I think she just forgot she had an intersection departure on the shelf. It sounds like she thought the PC-12 was following the Bluestreak.

That was the conclusion of the investigation as well. There is a hump where 23 crosses 18L and at taxiway Alpha you can't see over it to the top end of 18L and from the top end of 18L you have to have pretty good sized tail sticking up at 18L@Alpha to see a plane. In fact, I've been in position and hold on 18L full length and had a Falcon taxi across on Alpha down field. All I could see was the very top of the tail fin which is why I started singing the Jaws theme. The FO didn't get it.

Anyhow, for what ever reason the controller thought the PC12 was full length and going on the runway behind the RJ. They weren't and by the time everybody realized what was going on (and the controller made a pretty ragged effort to stop the CRJ's departure roll) they missed each other by something like 3 feet.
 
I can't see any scenario in which this isn't a controller error. She cleared an airplane to takeoff, and cleared an airplane to position and hold in front of him, using very standard phraseology. She also balled up deconflicting them, but her heart was probably wedged up in her pharynx.

Given that she called the landing traffic on 23, I bet anything she forgot the Pilatus was an intersection departure. :<

If I'm in the Pilatus, though, I'm thinking "wait a minute, didn't she just clear someone for takeoff on 18L?" ... but then, I don't fly big stuff, so I have a lot more time to myself to listen for such things. Regardless, kudos to both crews for not making a big mess.

-Fox
 
I can't see any scenario in which this isn't a controller error. She cleared an airplane to takeoff, and cleared an airplane to position and hold in front of him, using very standard phraseology.

The controller made a mistake, but had the Pilatus pilot used standard phraseology, this would probably never have happened. She obviously thought the pc12 was full length. Had he responded properly (runway 18L at Alpha, position and hold) I'm willing to bet that somebody would have caught it.

It's the little things that can kill you...
 
The controller made a mistake, but had the Pilatus pilot used standard phraseology, this would probably never have happened. She obviously thought the pc12 was full length. Had he responded properly (runway 18L at Alpha, position and hold) I'm willing to bet that somebody would have caught it.

It's the little things that can kill you...


I don't get this. How would the tower controller not know that it wasn't a full length departure?
 
Aren't tower controllers given a nice office space way high up with really cool 360degree glass widow view of the Airfield?

Not to sound ignorant either, as I've been up to the towers of 2 major airports, and tower of a military airfield, but aren't their binoculars up-their just in case.

e.g. to check landing gear deployment during a flyby. To see specific ground traffic way out on the other side of the field more closely.
 
If I remember that intersection correctly you can't see the end of 18L because it's beyond the crest of the hill and with the angle of that taxiway it'd be hard to see from the left seat of a Pilatus.
They won't even let you taxi across 23 on delta because of that. You have to take alpha to the approach end of 23 and cross there.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
 
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