CLT runway incursion. It's okay to raise your voice.

[FM_Weasel]

When we are involved in deals where separation is lost we usually get up to 9 weeks (I think) of administrative leave, and I think psychological counselling.

I've been in the terminal environment for a few years now. Before ATSAP rolled out, I saw folks get a day or two of admin/class time to refresh on procedures and technique. Since ATSAP I haven't actually seen anyone pulled from working for any error/deviation, though I'm sure it happens elsewhere.

 

[amorris311]

I know they're allowed some leniency, just wasn't sure to what extent. This event is similar to the LAX accident with SkyWest and Airways, but obviously a different conclusion due to lives being lost.

Jtsastre

Homegirl was back in the saddle at LAX and I believe retired there. Many contributing factors to that accident. That's one of the reasons LAX has that huge tower.

 

[jtsastre]

Homegirl was back in the saddle at LAX and I believe retired there. Many contributing factors to that accident. That's one of the reasons LAX has that huge tower.

Crazy. I swore she was let go for that.

Jtsastre

 

[greg1016]

I've been in the terminal environment for a few years now. Before ATSAP rolled out, I saw folks get a day or two of admin/class time to refresh on procedures and technique. Since ATSAP I haven't actually seen anyone pulled from working for any error/deviation, though I'm sure it happens elsewhere.

I had one coworker take the full 45 days for a deal that wasn't even his, he just happened to be on position when it was discovered, and another take 10 days, both instances occurred in oceanic airspace, and both took the time off voluntarily. At least one resulted in briefings and supplemental training for everyone working oceanic, the other happened before I was trained so if there was a briefing, they didn't send me. The training basically consisted of "don't do what we told you not to do"

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

I know they're allowed some leniency, just wasn't sure to what extent. This event is similar to the LAX accident with SkyWest and Airways, but obviously a different conclusion due to lives being lost.

Jtsastre

Read up on "just culture."

You don't fire someone for a mistake.

 

[Chief Captain]

I don't think standard phraseology would have helped - a "18L at A" could have cued the Bluestreak crew, but more than likely they were busy doing their "below the line" or whatever. I think things would have been the same. Also, that's a hard angle to clear from the left seat of a PC-12 without really cranning your neck or having some of the passenger windows open and the seat un-occupied.

Relevant Youtube video:

Had he read back the instruction using proper phraseology, the crew or the controller would likely have caught it. The pilot didn't use proper phraseology, and that was really the final hole in the cheese.

 

[jtsastre]

Read up on "just culture."

You don't fire someone for a mistake.

Interesting subject. Didn't know it existed. Thanks.

Jtsastre

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

Interesting subject. Didn't know it existed. Thanks.

Jtsastre

No prob. Check out the book "Whack A Mole." It's a great read, and very applicable to aviation. It basically boils down to:

1. Reward positive behavior.
2. Counsel at-risk behavior. (Retraining, etc.)
3. Punish reckless behavior. (Suspension, termination, etc.)

Reckless behavior is rare, particularly in aviation. Even the Pinnacle crash at "410" was likely not reckless because they didn't have the training to understand how dangerous their actions were. They didn't comprehend that they were in a high-risk situation, and therefore were behaving at-risk (disregarding procedure, behaving unprofessionally). To be reckless one must fully understand the danger. They clearly didn't.

Our industry is making great strides in the just culture model, but we have a ways to go.

 

[Vector4Food]

Interesting subject. Didn't know it existed. Thanks.

Jtsastre

Just Culture makes the entire operation safer, we follow the same practice up here. It means that the prospect of turning yourself in doesn't mean any reprocussions, unless of course it's a constant repeat offense, in which case that person would probably realize they shouldn't be in the job any more.

Having an OI or a "deal" as the NATCA boys and girls call it, is probably one of the worst feelings in the world, even though 95% of them there was no imminent danger, which is why we're so anal on the frequency about a lot of things most pilots would think is no big deal.

Even when you're 99% sure the pilot messed up and caused one, you feel like complete and utter crap until the tapes are pulled and reviewed, and even then you sit there and analyse it for hours and days wondering if you could have done something different.

The minute stressors about this job making sure everything is checked and cross checked, and re checked, constantly at 100 miles a minute, is what makes this job difficult for most people, not the prospect about welding metal together...

 

[jtsastre]

No prob. Check out the book "Whack A Mole." It's a great read, and very applicable to aviation. It basically boils down to:

1. Reward positive behavior.
2. Counsel at-risk behavior. (Retraining, etc.)
3. Punish reckless behavior. (Suspension, termination, etc.)

Reckless behavior is rare, particularly in aviation. Even the Pinnacle crash at "410" was likely not reckless because they didn't have the training to understand how dangerous their actions were. They didn't comprehend that they were in a high-risk situation, and therefore were behaving at-risk (disregarding procedure, behaving unprofessionally). To be reckless one must fully understand the danger. They clearly didn't.

Our industry is making great strides in the just culture model, but we have a ways to go.

Thanks, I'll have to take a look at it. Seems logical.

Jtsastre

 

[jtsastre]

Just Culture makes the entire operation safer, we follow the same practice up here. It means that the prospect of turning yourself in doesn't mean any reprocussions, unless of course it's a constant repeat offense, in which case that person would probably realize they shouldn't be in the job any more.

Having an OI or a "deal" as the NATCA boys and girls call it, is probably one of the worst feelings in the world, even though 95% of them there was no imminent danger, which is why we're so anal on the frequency about a lot of things most pilots would think is no big deal.

Even when you're 99% sure the pilot messed up and caused one, you feel like complete and utter crap until the tapes are pulled and reviewed, and even then you sit there and analyse it for hours and days wondering if you could have done something different.

The minute stressors about this job making sure everything is checked and cross checked, and re checked, constantly at 100 miles a minute, is what makes this job difficult for most people, not the prospect about welding metal together...

Yeah, I couldn't imagine returning to work after something like that.

Jtsastre