9E TA Reached

Wouldn't it have been easier to write than in the first place? Thanks for clarifying it up. It seems your mileage varies greatly depending on what base. The same is true at JetBlue. At VX, being hired in 2006 would have made one in the top 10 pretty much. At JetBlue, that would a junior CA, but depending on which base you are talking about, 2003-2004 guys are doing well.
I love it (not) when people don't take any responsibility for their own mistakes. You confused most junior CA with senior CA. Then you started back pedaling saying it depends on the base.

There was limited hiring in 2003 and then hiring in 2007. Some are upgrading recently or now or have done so several months after 6/2010. DH was last on the list for quite some time as a 2001 hire. That was the entire list, not just by base. So, despite your repeated assertions that someone hired 2003-2007 is a senior CA, they are not. Most have recently or are just now upgrading. That doesn't make them senior. Yes a few 2003 hires went to the new bases and are senior there. Big deal. DH was #2 in SJU in 2008. He lived like a king! Then the speculators drove up the price of oil and the company sold off four planes. So, that seniority in base meant nothing. He was the last frigging CA in the company. They downsized and he was downgraded. Those 2007 hires that are now upgrading (for whom they struck) were furloughed. Get it? Being senior in base can be a fleeting thing when you are not senior in the company.

Geez...
 
At VX, being hired in 2006 would have made one in the top 10 pretty much. At JetBlue, that would a junior CA, but depending on which base you are talking about, 2003-2004 guys are doing well.

Wow, you mean I could have been top of the list at Virgin? I could have been top of the list at Skybus too. We know how well that worked out... Like I said, pass.

Why go to Colgan instead? To begin with, ATP yes, remotely significant amount of PIC time no; so that ruled out prety much every major of which I don't recall any actually hiring at the time I left the AF. As for regionals/LCCs, none of it is the flying I wanted to do then or now, which is international flying. I'm not a plane nerd, I couldn't care less what plane it is in other than generally preferring a yoke. I could very easily have found myself trapped in the "I'm comfortable here and making good money now and don't want to leave" game at a middle of the road place (I also include SouthTran in this list of middle of the road) had I gone to one of them instead back then though. Pay at Colgan was/is bearable and I've been based at home for all but 11 months of my time here. You'll never hear me say "it's too good to leave" or "I'm comfotable right now" because it always has and always will suck, just like every single other regional airline out there. Also as far as regionals go, they just happened to call first.

You wanted my reasoning, there you go. We can move on now and you can get back to insulting the rest of the people in this thread. Weren't we talking about a TA or something here?
 
I love it (not) when people don't take any responsibility for their own mistakes. You confused most junior CA with senior CA. Then you started back pedaling saying it depends on the base.

There was limited hiring in 2003 and then hiring in 2007. Some are upgrading recently or now or have done so several months after 6/2010. DH was last on the list for quite some time as a 2001 hire. That was the entire list, not just by base. So, despite your repeated assertions that someone hired 2003-2007 is a senior CA, they are not. Most have recently or are just now upgrading. That doesn't make them senior. Yes a few 2003 hires went to the new bases and are senior there. Big deal. DH was #2 in SJU in 2008. He lived like a king! Then the speculators drove up the price of oil and the company sold off four planes. So, that seniority in base meant nothing. He was the last frigging CA in the company. They downsized and he was downgraded. Those 2007 hires that are now upgrading (for whom they struck) were furloughed. Get it? Being senior in base can be a fleeting thing when you are not senior in the company.

Geez...
I saw the most junior CA listed as Oct 2007, and surmised a 2003-2004 guy might be doing well on the list. Turns it not so, then so be it. That's why I figured of the 4 airlines listed, 2 of them would fit the description of of doing well (senior) for those hired in 2003-2005. Spirit apparently isn't, but VX and JB are. And there's no back peddling, because yes, it depends on base. Most junior Captain awarded at DFW for Feb 13 is a guy hired Oct 2007. What would be the DOH of the most junior Captain hired at DTW? A lot more senior than DFW I would imagine. Btw, what's a DH?
 
Wow, you mean I could have been top of the list at Virgin? I could have been top of the list at Skybus too. We know how well that worked out... Like I said, pass.

Why go to Colgan instead? To begin with, ATP yes, remotely significant amount of PIC time no; so that ruled out prety much every major of which I don't recall any actually hiring at the time I left the AF. As for regionals/LCCs, none of it is the flying I wanted to do then or now, which is international flying. I'm not a plane nerd, I couldn't care less what plane it is in other than generally preferring a yoke. I could very easily have found myself trapped in the "I'm comfortable here and making good money now and don't want to leave" game at a middle of the road place (I also include SouthTran in this list of middle of the road) had I gone to one of them instead back then though. Pay at Colgan was/is bearable and I've been based at home for all but 11 months of my time here. You'll never hear me say "it's too good to leave" or "I'm comfotable right now" because it always has and always will suck, just like every single other regional airline out there. Also as far as regionals go, they just happened to call first.

You wanted my reasoning, there you go. We can move on now and you can get back to insulting the rest of the people in this thread. Weren't we talking about a TA or something here?
Ok, that sounds fair enough. As for Skybus, a lot of them came to VX and some to NK too. Despite the negative industry connotation, these guys are a good bunch (the ones I've come across).
 
"Most junior captain" doesn't really mean anything in this industry. We had guys here in the training department who were two or three years away from holding captain by seniority who were upgraded and their date of hire was considered the most junior captain. Of course people hired 2 years prior to them couldn't actually hold it, but hey, as long as APC says so, it must be true.
 
"Most junior captain" is a specious metric.

Sure, there are 2000 hires flying "junior captain" at SouthernJets but what does that mean for a person not on the seniority list? Jack Shizzle. Their 12 year upgrade may have happened first at 5 years, then displaced and not they're finally getting back into the seat after being FO again. A lot of us went to captain quick, got displaced to FO, back to Captain, back to FO and are finally crawling back in the seat. A person hired in 2014 may be able to upgrade in their probationary year OR they may not be eligible to upgrade for 25.

Like there are some "relatively junior" captains in the left seat on the 767 in NYC. HOWEVER, if you look at the next few guys ahead of him on the category list, they're much more senior and aren't going to be out of his way for years unless we start receiving widebodies. Then until the end of time there will be people senior to him bidding into the position so he'll be the plug for a long time.

But there is probably someone browsing APC thinking "I'm gonna apply! The most junior captain seat at Brand A is 6 years and the most junior captain seat at Brand Z is 12 years! Hoo hoo! Order those four-stripe epaulets NOW!"

That's why there are these old guys on the forum always telling you guys to slow down and take a little taste of reality before y'all get your panties in a tizzy with undue expectations, but we all know where that road leads to. WhaddYOOOOO know?! My last memo said 'this', APC says 'that', my crash pad mate says something else.

Horse. Water. Why don't he drink?
 
I saw the most junior CA listed as Oct 2007, and surmised a 2003-2004 guy might be doing well on the list. Turns it not so, then so be it. That's why I figured of the 4 airlines listed, 2 of them would fit the description of of doing well (senior) for those hired in 2003-2005. Spirit apparently isn't, but VX and JB are. And there's no back peddling, because yes, it depends on base. Most junior Captain awarded at DFW for Feb 13 is a guy hired Oct 2007. What would be the DOH of the most junior Captain hired at DTW? A lot more senior than DFW I would imagine. Btw, what's a DH?
You still don't get it. Bases change. And you keep talking about most junior CA. That is not relevant! And I don't know the irrelevant hire date of the most junior CA in DTW. DH already told you he isn't based there, but you keep focusing on it.

DH means dear,darned, whatever starts with a "d" and the h is for Husband. My DH answered your post and you questioned his experience.

Again, you stated that pilots hired 2003-2007 would be CA and senior at half of the airlines you mentioned ( and my pilot wives at Jetblue with hire dates in your range don't consider themselves senior!). DH said that didn't apply to Spirit and you changed the tune to talking about the DOH for the most junior CA. Then you said that a CA could be senior at certain bases. Both DH and I have told you that it doesn't matter. You don't understand that bases change, close, expand or contract. It happens all the time. DH was the king of SJU for four months. Then he was downgraded for 1 3/4 years because while he was senior at SJU, he was junior as a CA overall. I don't understand why you don't get this.

Perhaps you might want to spend more time listening, seeking to learn and understand rather than focusing on finding ways to prove your flawed point. It's all about your reputation in business and not burning bridges.

Neither DH or I will waste any more time on this.
 
"Most junior captain" is a specious metric.

Sure, there are 2000 hires flying "junior captain" at SouthernJets but what does that mean for a person not on the seniority list? Jack Shizzle. Their 12 year upgrade may have happened first at 5 years, then displaced and not they're finally getting back into the seat after being FO again. A lot of us went to captain quick, got displaced to FO, back to Captain, back to FO and are finally crawling back in the seat. A person hired in 2014 may be able to upgrade in their probationary year OR they may not be eligible to upgrade for 25.

Like there are some "relatively junior" captains in the left seat on the 767 in NYC. HOWEVER, if you look at the next few guys ahead of him on the category list, they're much more senior and aren't going to be out of his way for years unless we start receiving widebodies. Then until the end of time there will be people senior to him bidding into the position so he'll be the plug for a long time.

But there is probably someone browsing APC thinking "I'm gonna apply! The most junior captain seat at Brand A is 6 years and the most junior captain seat at Brand Z is 12 years! Hoo hoo! Order those four-stripe epaulets NOW!"

That's why there are these old guys on the forum always telling you guys to slow down and take a little taste of reality before y'all get your panties in a tizzy with undue expectations, but we all know where that road leads to. WhaddYOOOOO know?! My last memo said 'this', APC says 'that', my crash pad mate says something else.

Horse. Water. Why don't he drink?
Put another way, "that seat that you're in now, while not as highly paid, had damn well better be pretty comfortable for when the music stops."
 
"Most junior captain" is a specious metric.

Sure, there are 2000 hires flying "junior captain" at SouthernJets but what does that mean for a person not on the seniority list? Jack Shizzle. Their 12 year upgrade may have happened first at 5 years, then displaced and not they're finally getting back into the seat after being FO again. A lot of us went to captain quick, got displaced to FO, back to Captain, back to FO and are finally crawling back in the seat. A person hired in 2014 may be able to upgrade in their probationary year OR they may not be eligible to upgrade for 25.

Like there are some "relatively junior" captains in the left seat on the 767 in NYC. HOWEVER, if you look at the next few guys ahead of him on the category list, they're much more senior and aren't going to be out of his way for years unless we start receiving widebodies. Then until the end of time there will be people senior to him bidding into the position so he'll be the plug for a long time.

But there is probably someone browsing APC thinking "I'm gonna apply! The most junior captain seat at Brand A is 6 years and the most junior captain seat at Brand Z is 12 years! Hoo hoo! Order those four-stripe epaulets NOW!"

That's why there are these old guys on the forum always telling you guys to slow down and take a little taste of reality before y'all get your panties in a tizzy with undue expectations, but we all know where that road leads to. WhaddYOOOOO know?! My last memo said 'this', APC says 'that', my crash pad mate says something else.

Horse. Water. Why don't he drink?

All I want to know is why you never made L-1011 Capt. :)
 
All I want to know is why you never made L-1011 Capt. :)

I wonder... :)

Another top 'o the mornin' thought was more senior pilots bidding into the category. My colleague who is "number last" on the 767ER list has been there for the past year because more senior pilots bid into the category which staves any forward progression. I think I can almost hold NYC A320 captain, but I guarantee you that I "wouldn't have to bid" for the next umpteen years because I would be the plug forever.

"Most junior captain" is pure Pyrite.
 
I wonder... :)

Another top 'o the mornin' thought was more senior pilots bidding into the category. My colleague who is "number last" on the 767ER list has been there for the past year because more senior pilots bid into the category which staves any forward progression. I think I can almost hold NYC A320 captain, but I guarantee you that I "wouldn't have to bid" for the next umpteen years because I would be the plug forever.

"Most junior captain" is pure Pyrite.

SLC 320A, around 2017.
 
Sorry, but if what I've read is any indication, the new "average" if they are calling it that is much lower than the current industry average. Must be some funny math to take it from industry average ('cause it wasn't industry leading) in the JCBA to....well, "mid range" industry average with the concessions.
Before I start I don't want anyone reading anger into my post, I'm just flippant and matter of fact a lot more these days due to the situation The Man's got me facing.

Funny math? Math is pretty much just math. Pinnacle and Delta don't care about a pilot's pet section they care about how much money goes out the door, in other words, a total contract value. I wish I could convince them to keep my pay rate as it is because my health care costs are middle of the road but I can't. Maybe you can fly down to ATL and tell RA for me, he isn't taking my calls. While you are there tell RA it wasn't fair the Mesaba guys didn't get anything off the JCBA except status quo because Pinnacle and Colgan- 2/3 of the pilots on the list- wages were so abhorrently low.

I don't know where you are getting your numbers that the JCBA wasn't industry leading, in fact no one I've flown with on the Pinnacle side or in the training department can tell me how it failed them they just know. Going by their guts? Maybe that's a remnant of a negotiating strategy that left you all parked, giving Phil 15 minutes free on late blocking flights, and contract that was second worst in the industry by value. Cue the complaints that you're medical coverage was industry leading please and you got screwed out of that... you're right. You guys win. I have no idea what the individual pilot is going to call industry leading anymore. Apparently if it came from Mesaba it's not industry leading, if your 100th negotiating committee got you parked then I guess your industry leading in time spent negotiating. Done rationalizing, completely done. You wanna talk numbers talk numbers.

Pinnacle cost per flight were higher because of the JCBA rates and our higher longevity. The union breaks down the math a little for the pilot in the presentation, but the company and the union agree on the costing mostly. We always want to pretend we are the cheapest and don't get paid anywhere near our worth, but unicorns and pixie dust don't cover the bills. Pinnacle's cost projected for 2013 were the highest to Delta in DCI. Maybe ASA and everyone else would have sprung up out of nowhere and "raised the bar" with new industry leading (post concessionary) contracts. We'll never know.

I know I'm being more flippant than usual. It's a stressful time and I haven't got time to educated myself on what the union presents, the company presents, and everyone else's gripe in the industry with our TA.

The TA is worth more than the 1113c ask (#2). The pinnacle JCBA in 2013 would be a higher cost than ASA's concessionary contract. Ideally we wouldn't deal with this issue until next year or year after when everyone else has negotiated out of their crap concessionary contract. We will be liquidated by then. Delta is going to invest more than $200m in a company this isn't worth anything. Phil and his goons, followed by Menke and Spanky have run us into the ground hard. The good news, is Delta has indicated they will be gone if we vote yes to this TA. Make no mistake, this company is officially junk, and none of the three management teams did anything to stop that.

The pilots can still STFD if you want to , you just vote no. An intelligent negotiating group can't slam the fist on the table and say "to hell with it then." Well you can, you just can't be called intelligent. The negotiating committee is charged by the MEC to give us some sort of choice, and I support the MEC on that direction. The pilots of this airline still have a choice. Take a step back down to the TA rates, and pray that you can coast until hiring starts up at other airlines, or be unemployed in 6 months. On thing is clear, Delta has more than enough regional partners like GoJets to give away flying to. Delta wins, we lose, pattern bargaining is a failure when you don't have one contract and one list. Furthermore, we as regional pilots are failures. Until regional pilots get serious about one contract and one list going forward, this is all worthless conjecture. I know, it's easier to criticise the Pinnacle pilots for choosing to continue collecting a check and rationalize it at our costs becoming too high in a shrinking industry with no way out.

Delta doesn't seem to care a lot about how this thing turns out, they can always wind us down and give the flying to whatever airline they want. The JCBA that was industry leading for 2013 is a dead rate one way or the other as of Jan 15th. No one is going to be negotiating our old contract + $1. Don't worry, that's it. Blame us, don't, I don't care anymore. We aren't trying to maintain a contract anymore, this company is Tango Uniform. Thanks to management we have to start all over again, maybe we should have had more VP's and that would have fixed it, no idea. We are starting over from scratch with no cash and no value except for 41 -900 contracts and 410 jobs for pilots of Pinnacle.

/start long rant
The original management plan was to get our contract costs below GoJet's, this forums "dedicated members MVP" in the regional rat race because that union tag next to their name makes them a partner in the future. Our total cost will not be lower than GoJet's now, although I'm sure there's an argument that if all of our top guys left tomorrow then our total costs would go down. How much? No idea. Compass actually has the sweetest deal. Their contract total costs are low as hell because of their longevity so they could actually get paid wildly better and still have a contract total less than ASA and Skywest and this Pinnacle TA. THAT'S A NOTE TO EVERYONE WHOSE AIRLINE IS ABOUT TO LIQUIDATE, RUN TO COMPASS.

(We could probably get a pray raise out of the deal if the union would agree to simply cut ties with any pilot > 8 years seniority. Longevity and soft pay were the two biggest sticking points.)

The best part, is Compass's longevity starts all over again in 2014-2016. But Delta would never sell out more large RJ's for the regionals, General Lee told me so. So Compass won't be the strongest Delta partner for the next decade, unless Delta does continue to outsource large RJ's to regional land.

Some noteworthy pluses.
  • Min day sticks around and the leg by leg (Big damn surprise, the soft money was the most contentious issue and it cost us the most to keep. Soft money > pay rates.)
  • The profit sharing is based off 1st dollar made by the corporation, not whatever they spend it down to.
  • Health care stays intact for the most part. Plan costs will increase some.
  • We get a huge pay cut but most will enjoy some sort of $6,000 or more payoff to help ease the pain. Speaking as a man who went through a downgrade, that sort of cash payout makes life much more tolerable. Also, this TA paycut will be less than my downgrade cost me. Thanks again RA.
  • Some relief on longevity, Delta classes to be made up of certain number of Pinnacle pilots each month. Eventually everyone can get an interview, and get a shot at Delta. Worst case it's still practice interviewing.
  • 11 days off per month. New bidding system which still guarantees 132 days off a year
The bad's? Plenty.
  • 9% paycut
  • Delta will probably own us when this is over. Comair part duex. This is guesswork.
  • Once we cap off on longevity, we will continue to slide down and off the map for industry average. Our contract will be held as the low standard, the benchmark for low cost and crap compared to everyone else. To Pinnacle and Colgan, this is familiar ground, for Mesaba lifers this is probably intolerable. There's no good news here, although it's likely the regional market will continue taking hits and concessions for many many years with Delta's loving hand directing our stagnation of wages. I would expect in 3 years every regional's cost to have completely stagnated due to Delta's pressure. Soon after the lowest costing regional to be based completely off how quickly their pilots can run to the majors and new blood come in.
  • Open time at straight time unless the company offers higher pay themselves. HAHAHAHAHA
  • Per Diem frozen at $1.70
  • Vacation trashed
  • Uniform pay gone, but 240 a year for something no one cares about anyway.
  • Single Day for reserve gone.
  • HRA, under company control. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Wait I haven't stopped holding my sides yet. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Yup, HRA is whatever the company wants... so get the OAP.
 
"Most junior captain" is a specious metric.

Sure, there are 2000 hires flying "junior captain" at SouthernJets but what does that mean for a person not on the seniority list? Jack Shizzle. Their 12 year upgrade may have happened first at 5 years, then displaced and not they're finally getting back into the seat after being FO again. A lot of us went to captain quick, got displaced to FO, back to Captain, back to FO and are finally crawling back in the seat. A person hired in 2014 may be able to upgrade in their probationary year OR they may not be eligible to upgrade for 25.

Like there are some "relatively junior" captains in the left seat on the 767 in NYC. HOWEVER, if you look at the next few guys ahead of him on the category list, they're much more senior and aren't going to be out of his way for years unless we start receiving widebodies. Then until the end of time there will be people senior to him bidding into the position so he'll be the plug for a long time.

But there is probably someone browsing APC thinking "I'm gonna apply! The most junior captain seat at Brand A is 6 years and the most junior captain seat at Brand Z is 12 years! Hoo hoo! Order those four-stripe epaulets NOW!"

That's why there are these old guys on the forum always telling you guys to slow down and take a little taste of reality before y'all get your panties in a tizzy with undue expectations, but we all know where that road leads to. WhaddYOOOOO know?! My last memo said 'this', APC says 'that', my crash pad mate says something else.

Horse. Water. Why don't he drink?

This is why I'm scared for my future at surejet. I'm very much to the point that no matter how much hiring we do, I won't see any benefit until people start leaving in droves. Many people ahead of me have no interest in leaving.
 
Joe, I still don't say how you can say "industry leading" and then say Mesaba just got status quo. If Mesaba just got status quo, and they weren't industry leading before, then it stands to reason, well, it wasn't industry leading. I agree it brought us up to the same level as comparable regionals like XJT, ASA or Skywest. Past them? Maybe in a couple of categories, but overall, I'd say we were on average with everyone else.
 
Joe, I still don't say how you can say "industry leading" and then say Mesaba just got status quo. If Mesaba just got status quo, and they weren't industry leading before, then it stands to reason, well, it wasn't industry leading. I agree it brought us up to the same level as comparable regionals like XJT, ASA or Skywest. Past them? Maybe in a couple of categories, but overall, I'd say we were on average with everyone else.
no prob bob. after mesabas final snapback we were ahead of skywest, and xjt, not asa or eagle though. if you wish to continue stacking category to category, as many enjoy, your more than welcome. i will continue to look at the whole picture. mesaba was exiting a concessionary contract, and we expected a lot more than a 3% gain, a fix on the fo concessionary one rate, and 25% increase on deadhead. thats how i say it, but even moreso, look at the bloch award he describes the inequity of advances in pay for all three pilot groups. theres also real number analysis of cost per crew, pre and post, which tell the same story, though i guess we dont show those breakdowns anymore, its super top secret (i dont understand why) stuff these days apparently.

anyway my point is, you say we were average and the numbers say otherwise. im not going to debate opinion versus numbers. perhaps all the numbers ive seen are lies, perhaps the union presentation is a lie and they are complicit in a giant deception. maybe all of us pinnacle guys should go by our guts, dont think i will. i hope everyone takes some time to watch the presentation in person or on the video. i dont think the union is lying to us. i dont think any less of anyone who votes no. who knowd, i still may. i had four requirements that were met assuming the numbers arent lies. i will say i dont know how we are going to be able to hire anyone three years from now if everyone else continues to make pay advaances and we are stuck with a cap.
 
The JCBA was not industry leading...its cost to Delta was industry leading based on the longevity of the airline. If you look at the graph the union is showing at the road shows it shows Pinnacle right in the middle of the pack, just above Compass and GoJets. That is still because our longevity is higher that those companies. The max pay in the TA for 900 CAs is around 87-88/hour. Look at ASA/ExpressJet, the differences in top pay is absolutely disgusting. The 12 year cap on CA pay is absolutely going to destroy other carriers in contract negotiations for the near future. Buddy of mine lives with an ASA FO based on the 900 in DTW. After 1.5 years on property he will be paid MORE than I, and I hit 6 years in May. Add in the fact their bidding/trade system/company hotels (all which substantially affect QOL) are far superior to ours CURRENTLY, they will be light-years ahead of us when this thing is passed. Sad.
 
I'm not trying to come across as if the JCBA was not a good deal, it's one of the best contracts in the regional industry. I just have a hard time believing that we were at the top of the pedestal when it comes to regional airlines. Towards the top, absolutely. But to call it industry leading, I doubt it.
 
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