9E TA Reached

[jynxyjoe]

The JCBA was not industry leading...its cost to Delta was industry leading based on the longevity of the airline. If you look at the graph the union is showing at the road shows it shows Pinnacle right in the middle of the pack, just above Compass and GoJets.

Well, it was industry leading on total cost. In theory Compass right now could have industry leading rates and still be cheaper than us. If you don't want to look at total cost that's fine, don't. A lot of guys have this ethereal sense of fairness where everything has to be fair. The truth is every pilot group has pluses and minuses, and if you are terribly senior as a pilot group you have advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage right now is that our contract gets expensive even at moderate pay rates.

Perspective wise we are at two different places. I have to be realistic and look at the contract cost. You want to look at it from another angle that shows "we really don't make that much". I can't look at it from that angle because it's not realistic, it's not what's being negotiated, and Delta doesn't make decisions that way. Maybe if we vote no we'll find out Delta was just kidding and they aren't really concerned with the costing, they are really interested on keeping things fair between the different pilot groups. I doubt it.

That is still because our longevity is higher that those companies. The max pay in the TA for 900 CAs is around 87-88/hour. Look at ASA/ExpressJet, the differences in top pay is absolutely disgusting. The 12 year cap on CA pay is absolutely going to destroy other carriers in contract negotiations for the near future. Buddy of mine lives with an ASA FO based on the 900 in DTW. After 1.5 years on property he will be paid MORE than I, and I hit 6 years in May. Add in the fact their bidding/trade system/company hotels (all which substantially affect QOL) are far superior to ours CURRENTLY, they will be light-years ahead of us when this thing is passed. Sad.

Well then vote no and head over there when we liquidate if they are still hiring. I don't really believe it without some numbers posted up, I don't need the guys W-2, just some basic numbers. I made a little more than 6 grand (with per diem) in August as -900 FO on reserve working my butt off. If he's doing better then that (and God bless him if he is) then lets get headed there right now. I can deal with the ASA uniforms, no prob.

ASA, however is a good company, run by a good management, and they have a negotiating position with Delta. Pinnacle isn't worth anything, and we're starting all over. We're now a startup regional that Delta has to dump a ton of cash into, just to get working. We're never going to be back at that JCBA level before Delta decides to wreck us 7 years from now or before because they need a regional to kick around for giggles. This place is tango uniform. You can vote yes, keep a paycheck while you search for a new job, or stand on principal that no one else will do for you. We voted no on the union at Colgan, I left as well as many others, and 100 guys were fighting for my seat at the worst airline in America. I don't regret leaving, I'd do it again (only I'd go to Compass), and if anyone votes no I'll respect them for standing on principal. The other airlines still won't get to negotiate with our JCBA in the mix because we'll be gone, a dead rate.

I'm not trying to come across as if the JCBA was not a good deal, it's one of the best contracts in the regional industry. I just have a hard time believing that we were at the top of the pedestal when it comes to regional airlines. Towards the top, absolutely. But to call it industry leading, I doubt it.

Only criticism I have is "believe this, doubt that". There's facts out there lets learn them and talk about them. Maybe I misunderstood everything. I don't think I'm that illiterate but I've been wrong before.

 

[kellwolf]

Joe, no offense but the union is going to present numbers to get the TA to pass. They started the hard sell before anyone saw the language because they new it was a choice between a • and a turd sandwich. So, part of the sell is to beef up how good we all had it and how it was inevitable that it should come crashing down around our ears. If they prove that point, well, then voting "yes" on the TA doesn't sound so bad.

What really sticks in my craw is the whole way they keep pushing this "career path" to Delta. Call it what it is: an interview. But it doesn't sound as good on the power points.

Not sure what industry leading on "cost" has to do with anything. Being the most expensive doesn't necessarily mean you have the best compensated pilots with good benefits and work rules. In those terms, ie what it really boils down to, we were right in line with everyone else. Cost is management responsibility. Work rules, pay and benefits are the union's. We were right there with the other regionals on those. It's turned into a battle of lies, damn lies and statistics. I'm sure there are plenty of stats out there to make Pinnacle look like they were industry leading in certain categories. However, when you compare real world situations, we weren't leading in the categories that matter in day to day life.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

If you don't measure a contract in terms of total cost, then I'm not sure how you think you should measure it. I don't care what my pay rate is, as long as my total compensation package is where it should be. I may have more in retirement and benefits than a guy at a another carrier who has his money in pay rates, but in the end, the guy with the highest compensation package "wins."

 

[jynxyjoe]

Joe, no offense but the union is going to present numbers to get the TA to pass. They started the hard sell before anyone saw the language because they new it was a choice between a and a turd sandwich. So, part of the sell is to beef up how good we all had it and how it was inevitable that it should come crashing down around our ears. If they prove that point, well, then voting "yes" on the TA doesn't sound so bad.

What really sticks in my craw is the whole way they keep pushing this "career path" to Delta. Call it what it is: an interview. But it doesn't sound as good on the power points.

Not sure what industry leading on "cost" has to do with anything. Being the most expensive doesn't necessarily mean you have the best compensated pilots with good benefits and work rules. In those terms, ie what it really boils down to, we were right in line with everyone else. Cost is management responsibility. Work rules, pay and benefits are the union's. We were right there with the other regionals on those. It's turned into a battle of lies, damn lies and statistics. I'm sure there are plenty of stats out there to make Pinnacle look like they were industry leading in certain categories. However, when you compare real world situations, we weren't leading in the categories that matter in day to day life.

And no offense taken.

Cost may be managements responsibility but I'm still not sure what management is suppose to do about pilot longevity. Besides, there are advantages to having old guys around who forgot more than I know. Maybe it's just the small business owner in me, but I completely understand the union, company's, and Delta's point about the total cost of the contract mattering the most. I don't think anyone is lying or lying with statistics. You can put anything you want up there to remind pilots how unfair and how crappy the situation is, it does nothing to further the conversation and it does nothing to "sell" the TA. If the pilots vote no they vote no. I'll be proud of them either way. What I'm not going to get wrapped up into is the "unfairness" of the situation or this crap about the JCBA wasn't good enough for the Pinnacle and Colgan pilots. The thing passed with about 90% voting and around 85% of those voters saying yes. We didn't vote to run the company into the ground, Phil & Friends did that.

We saved some of the health care, we aren't going down to GoJet wages, a lot of the soft pay I enjoy and has always been a good % of my pay monthly is there, the senior guys retirement don't get annihilated. I reject the talk that we are going to tailspin the industry. Horizon, ASA, Eagle, and Mesaba all negotiated good regional contracts with the Mesa's, GoJets, etc out there.

If the pilots choose to torpedo the company, then that's the way it is. Just don't get pissed because you hopped up on the cross and Trip7 celebrates the next day because he gets to upgrade off our equipment leaving, or Trip7's twin at Mesa/GoJet/whateverisleft 6 months later.

Take the paycheck for the next year or so, and the furlough benefits afterward if needed, it gives you time to get the next job. Worry about the contract of the next guy? Sorry that was done the minute we filed the 1113c. You have no control over the other regional's contract negotiations, so everyone just stop putting yourself up on the cross. You're not a martyr, the only control you have is to walk away and pray everyone else comes off property with you. They won't. We aren't a union, we aren't blue collar workers, we are pathetic boys playing in a mans world bitching because our allowance is tiny.

If we had any brains, any balls, any forward thoughts, we'd have one contract and one list nation wide. Even something like the Canadian pilots jazz agreement would work for me. Whatever it takes to create some stability. Until then, no one talk to me about raising the bar, pattern bargaining, or pilot unity and expect me to take you seriously.

 

[L-16B]

If you don't measure a contract in terms of total cost, then I'm not sure how you think you should measure it. I don't care what my pay rate is, as long as my total compensation package is where it should be. I may have more in retirement and benefits than a guy at a another carrier who has his money in pay rates, but in the end, the guy with the highest compensation package "wins."

^^^ this!

I naively groaned about our Saab CA rates in the Jcba being a buck or two under the old Mesaba ones. Well 6 months into 2012 I was on pace to make 6 figures as I lived in base and picked every scrap of flying up, many times for more than 200%. Pay rate didn't mean jack to me once I realized how wrong and ignorant I was!

 

[kellwolf]

If you don't measure a contract in terms of total cost, then I'm not sure how you think you should measure it. I don't care what my pay rate is, as long as my total compensation package is where it should be. I may have more in retirement and benefits than a guy at a another carrier who has his money in pay rates, but in the end, the guy with the highest compensation package "wins."

Guess I'm thinking of the management side of costs. What you're talking about, to me, is total compensation, not cost. When I think cost, it's in the other column as compensation. As a CA flying a decent schedule and in the top half of the seniority list in JFK, I wasn't exactly blowing guys at Skywest and XJT out of the water in total compensation. I was about even with my buddy over at Skywest who had been there about as long as I'd been at 9E. Besides, you know I look at more than just the pay scale charts. But, even talking soft money like 100% cancellation pay and 4 hour min day, which were HUGE gains for 9E, it just brought us up to what Mesaba already had in their contract.

Guess I'm still waiting for those magic bullet points that made the JCBA "industry leading" rather than right with everyone else. I'm not saying it wasn't a good deal. It absolutely was, and I voted "yes" pretty quickly myself. However, I don't consider it an industry leading contract or even really something XJT could point to and say "We want that" since most of the gains over the 1999 agreement were already in their contract.

I've said on that other board why IF I were still at 9E I'd be voting "no." When we went into bankruptcy, I drew a line in the sand saying "If they want me to go below this, I'm out." This not only would drop me under that line, but WAAAAY under that line. For me, commuting to JFK for a crappy schedule to sit in crappy hotels (let's not forget the rule change coming up that's going to trigger a LOT of long layovers in said hotels) most of the week on REALLY crap FO pay only to see it all go away about 1 1/2 years later, recalled a few years later and MAYBE get my INTERVIEW at Delta (where I really don't even wanna work anyway) wouldn't be enough for me to put up with. At some point you have to say "Flying airplanes is cool, but I'm worth more than this." It's not a stance for the industry, that was my (and is) my personal stance for me. Everyone needs to figure it out for themselves and make decisions accordingly. If someone is okay with that level of compensation for the headache, that's fine. But the minute they start complaining about how their life sucks and how little they make, I'll be the first one to remind them that they a) are still there and b) ask how they voted.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Guess I'm thinking of the management side of costs. What you're talking about, to me, is total compensation, not cost.

From your perspective, it's compensation. From management's, it's pilot costs. It's the same number, just different ways of looking at it. In the end, what matters in a CBA is total pilot labor costs divided by number of pilots. Some would further refine it to total pilot labor costs divided by total pilot block hours, but rarely are those numbers all that different (except when looking at SWA, which really starts to look bad from a block hour perspective). A lot of pilots don't really understand just how expensive some things are. For example, health care costs. A difference between an 80% company contribution towards healthcare premiums compared to 70% is really big money. Most pilots forget to factor that into their total compensation, but they shouldn't.

I've said on that other board why IF I were still at 9E I'd be voting "no." When we went into bankruptcy, I drew a line in the sand saying "If they want me to go below this, I'm out." This not only would drop me under that line, but WAAAAY under that line. For me, commuting to JFK for a crappy schedule to sit in crappy hotels (let's not forget the rule change coming up that's going to trigger a LOT of long layovers in said hotels) most of the week on REALLY crap FO pay only to see it all go away about 1 1/2 years later, recalled a few years later and MAYBE get my INTERVIEW at Delta (where I really don't even wanna work anyway) wouldn't be enough for me to put up with. At some point you have to say "Flying airplanes is cool, but I'm worth more than this." It's not a stance for the industry, that was my (and is) my personal stance for me. Everyone needs to figure it out for themselves and make decisions accordingly. If someone is okay with that level of compensation for the headache, that's fine. But the minute they start complaining about how their life sucks and how little they make, I'll be the first one to remind them that they a) are still there and b) ask how they voted.

I'm not advocating a vote one way or another. I know how I'd vote if I were there, but that isn't really relevant, because I'm not there anymore. The pilots who need to decide are the ones who will have to live with the results. And frankly, they don't need a bunch of outsiders giving them a hard time like I see on that "other" board, trying to pressure them to vote a certain way. They should vote for what they think is best for them and their families.

 

[surreal1221]

The JCBA was not industry leading...its cost to Delta was industry leading based on the longevity of the airline. If you look at the graph the union is showing at the road shows it shows Pinnacle right in the middle of the pack, just above Compass and GoJets. That is still because our longevity is higher that those companies. The max pay in the TA for 900 CAs is around 87-88/hour. Look at ASA/ExpressJet, the differences in top pay is absolutely disgusting. The 12 year cap on CA pay is absolutely going to destroy other carriers in contract negotiations for the near future. Buddy of mine lives with an ASA FO based on the 900 in DTW. After 1.5 years on property he will be paid MORE than I, and I hit 6 years in May. Add in the fact their bidding/trade system/company hotels (all which substantially affect QOL) are far superior to ours CURRENTLY, they will be light-years ahead of us when this thing is passed. Sad.

Glad you see the realities of this TA.

However, we MAY be light years ahead, but I caution you to think that we will be ahead for too long.

If this TA passes it will absolutely crush our ability to maintain, much less improve upon our current agreement.

This thing needs to die and you guys call their real bluff. What has the Company given you to show any appreciation for your efforts? I have my guess, but I have a feeling it's between not a lot and very little.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Until I can get some sort of credit at another regional company for 5 years of service, including a commensurate schedule and pay, I know how I think I'll vote.

$7/hr pay cut or ~$20...

The regional industry isn't meant for lifers.

 

[derg]

You never get it back.

They'll just move the goalposts much closer to the ball so you get the sensation of a field goal without all that pesky negotiation.

 

[jynxyjoe]

You never get it back.

They'll just move the goalposts much closer to the ball so you get the sensation of a field goal without all that pesky negotiation.

i dont see anyone claiming we are ever going to be getting it back.

 

[Seggy]

If this TA passes it will absolutely crush our ability to maintain, much less improve upon our current agreement.

Before you go around blaming what is going on at PCL for you guys not getting a good contract, your merger with joint contract should have been completed LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG ago.

Before you blame the company, I would look first at some of the MEC politics here.

 

[undsioux1]

Glad you see the realities of this TA.

However, we MAY be light years ahead, but I caution you to think that we will be ahead for too long.

If this TA passes it will absolutely crush our ability to maintain, much less improve upon our current agreement.

This thing needs to die and you guys call their real bluff. What has the Company given you to show any appreciation for your efforts? I have my guess, but I have a feeling it's between not a lot and very little.

This will pass easily. From what I've heard, management cut-off negotiations with you guys to see what would happen with us?? If so I have a bleak outlook for the resumption of talks for you guys.

 

[undsioux1]

Before you go around blaming what is going on at PCL for you guys not getting a good contract, your merger with joint contract should have been completed LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG ago.

Before you blame the company, I would look first at some of the MEC politics here.

^^This as well. Wasn't the major holdup over which bidding system you guys would use?? Things like that are going to seem petty when talks resume over there.

 

[Seggy]

^^This as well. Wasn't the major holdup over which bidding system you guys would use?? Things like that are going to seem petty when talks resume over there.

Yep, that was ONE of the holdups, but not the only one.

 

[surreal1221]

Before you go around blaming what is going on at PCL for you guys not getting a good contract, your merger with joint contract should have been completed LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG ago.

Before you blame the company, I would look first at some of the MEC politics here.

Well Seggy, to be quite frank,

I wasn't blaming Pinnacle, or the pilots in the service of Pinnacle Corp.

I was however, and will continue to stress, the realization of the impact this agreement will have on our process here.

I'm actually pretty above board here as of late so Im going to continue to do the honorable thing and not discuss any internal or external MEC politics that may or may not exist. That said, it is not the clown car some would be left to believe.

Cheers

 

[Seggy]

I was however, and will continue to stress, the realization of the impact this agreement will have on our process here.

That is fine and dandy, but I will also stress that if y'all had a joint agreement in place, y'all would be a lot less exposed than you are now.

I'm actually pretty above board here as of late so Im going to continue to do the honorable thing and not discuss any internal or external MEC politics that may or may not exist. That said, it is not the clown car some would be left to believe.

Let's cut the crap here and I will say that politics do exist and I will discuss them here because it is public information. XJT recalled their MEC Chair October during the BOD, that is politics. Before that there were some other political issues with the XJT MEC Chair that led to his resignation. To go have three MEC Chairs in less than two years (during a merger by the way) is the definition of union politics.

This all leads back to my point, I wouldn't worry to much about the impact of what happens at PCL, y'all can't change the past. Look at your MECs first to look what they did in the past to not get you were you needed to be. NOT the Pinnacle Pilots.

 

[surreal1221]

And so are you saying it would be appropriate or fitting for a member within the ASA MEC to comment on the politics of our sister airline's MEC?

You feel free to say whatever you want, but the problems that they have are not really something I think I will comment on.

Drama fest is free to continue, however entertaining as you think it is.

 

[Seggy]

And so are you saying it would be appropriate or fitting for a member within the ASA MEC to comment on the politics of our sister airline's MEC?

Nope, not appropriate at all.

I also feel it's not appropriate for you in your position to also be commenting with what is happening at Pinnacle as well.

 

[surreal1221]

Nope, not appropriate at all.

I also feel it's not appropriate for you in your position to also be commenting with what happens at Pinnacle as well. Thats why I challenged you in case you are wondering.

Awesome, spectacular.

Sorry Im a realist Mark.

You know damn well nothing I said was out of line. Whatever comes from the PCL TA, since Im operating in reality and not fantasy land of us somehow having a JCBA over a year ago, will have an impact on our process here.

Challenge me all you want, but you're going to fall short of any sort of substance. Pattern bargaining, regrettably, works in both directions. There can be the upward maintaining and increasing of standards or the downward drag of furthering or maintaining of standards.

We can go all academia on this when it is all said and done, but at this juncture none of it is even close.

Cheers!