Kellwolf's Major Airline Experience

The one that had me going simple dog head tilt tonight was the LOC 17L into MCO. Tons of step down fixes, they come up fast and I'm still getting used to the displays. The way I had it set up is to use the vertical profile display and just set the VS mode to keep me on the 3.0 line. Where things got messed up was when I got off the line. The VS wheel in the E190 uses MUCH smaller increments than the CRJ, so I spun the wheel and was only doing 500 FPM. Spun it several times again.....800 FPM. WTF? Spun it again....and realized I'm looking at the INDICATED VS not what I'm setting it for. I set it for 3000 FPM. By the time I had that figured out, we were at the FAF. Had to rush to set the MDA to catch up. By then I was way behind. Basically, I was not happy with how I did tonight. It's cool, though. We're doing more LOC approaches tomorrow and the next day, so hopefully I can redeem myself.
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You guys use V/S down on LOC approaches? Can you find out if the Airbus guys also use the V/S on LOC, or is it FPA?
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
kell, I don't want to take away from your thread. I'll just conclude that previous topic by saying the OP wrote specifically that "You know why it was that way at Pinnacle? It's cause the training dept got populated by folks from Jet University." And that is false. The training department did not get populated by Jet U folks. Of the 70 or so that actually got hired from Jet U, only 2 ended up in the training department, and that was in the 2010 desperation phase. A majority of the training department is run by senior lifers, long term professional sim instructors, and the northern mississippi flying club. You are correct Pinnacle trains with the thought that low timers are coming in through the doors. Maybe it's the Gulfstream crowd too. But the FACT still remains that Jet U pilots had minimal to ZERO impact on changing anything in the training department. The training department changes were caused by senior MEM folks. Now if they changed the training department because they couldn't get qualified pilots through the door, so be it. But the training department was NOT populated by Jet U folks. And almost all regionals were hiring low timers in 2007 and training to the lowest denominator, except Eagle. The blame here isn't on Jet U pilots, but on the regional industry in general for the training standards and procedures set up.
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I wouldn't say there were "changes." Pinnacle's training has always been about dumbing it down, taking away as much decision making as possible and reducing managment's exposure to liability. It's had nothing to do with teaching people to operate an aircraft safely in a complex environment. If it's not working, rather than try to figure out why, Pinnacle's response is to send a memo or beat people into submission until it does work. But, that's what you get when you hire people that may or may not have ever even made a PIC decision except for a couple of cross countries during their PPL training. You're right. The training department wasn't run or staffed with people from Jet U, but they have to write the syllabus for the target audience. If they had written a complex syllabus to be used at Jet U, people wouldn't have made it through the program simply because they didn't have the experience to do so.

I'll tell ya right now, if I came into this jetBlue training without prior airline experience, I'd be pretty darn lost.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
You guys use V/S down on LOC approaches? Can you find out if the Airbus guys also use the V/S on LOC, or is it FPA?
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We can use either one. The E190 has a nice vertical display that is basically a cross section. Think of the profile view on a Jepp chart that shows the fixes, crossing altitudes and descent angle. You can basically just draw a line on the fixes and stick to that. Airbus? Got no clue, man. That's a completely different animal.

You CAN use FPA on the E190, HOWEVER, it won't keep you from doing >1000 FPM down low. VS mode will.
 
kellwolf said:
I wouldn't say there were "changes." Pinnacle's training has always been about dumbing it down, taking away as much decision making as possible and reducing managment's exposure to liability. It's had nothing to do with teaching people to operate an aircraft safely in a complex environment. If it's not working, rather than try to figure out why, Pinnacle's response is to send a memo or beat people into submission until it does work. But, that's what you get when you hire people that may or may not have ever even made a PIC decision except for a couple of cross countries during their PPL training. You're right. The training department wasn't run or staffed with people from Jet U, but they have to write the syllabus for the target audience. If they had written a complex syllabus to be used at Jet U, people wouldn't have made it through the program simply because they didn't have the experience to do so.

I'll tell ya right now, if I came into this jetBlue training without prior airline experience, I'd be pretty darn lost.
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Fair enough. But Pinnacle's syllabus for training was already set up far before Jet U even came into existence. The first Jet U guys were hired in Dec 2006, so the training procedures were all from the time prior. Gulfstream guys and street hire CFIs were the target audience the training program was set up for as of Dec 2006, when Jet U first started.

As for jetBlue training being tough without prior airline experience, can you comment on the Cape Air Gateway program pilots? How are they faring in it? I'd imagine it would be a tough transition from a light twin Cessna 402 straight into a EMB190 or a A320? Any of these guys in your class?
 
kellwolf said:
We can use either one. The E190 has a nice vertical display that is basically a cross section. Think of the profile view on a Jepp chart that shows the fixes, crossing altitudes and descent angle. You can basically just draw a line on the fixes and stick to that. Airbus? Got no clue, man. That's a completely different animal.

You CAN use FPA on the E190, HOWEVER, it won't keep you from doing >1000 FPM down low. VS mode will.
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Yeah I saw that while jumpseating on a Frontier E190 (Republic?), that profile view definitely seemed handy! Nothing like that in the Airbus. Just set the crossing restrictions speeds and altitudes in the box, and manage the descent.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Fair enough. But Pinnacle's syllabus for training was already set up far before Jet U even came into existence. The first Jet U guys were hired in Dec 2006, so the training procedures were all from the time prior. Gulfstream guys and street hire CFIs were the target audience the training program was set up for as of Dec 2006, when Jet U first started.

As for jetBlue training being tough without prior airline experience, can you comment on the Cape Air Gateway program pilots? How are they faring in it? I'd imagine it would be a tough transition from a light twin Cessna 402 straight into a EMB190 or a A320? Any of these guys in your class?
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I think the point of his post was it was set up for low time guys like people from Jet U. Might not have been the exact words he used, but that's what I got out of it, and I agree 100%.

There are some Cape Air guys in the class ahead of me, but I don't know how they're fairing. I DID hear there were some in the class ahead that had difficulty in training. Honestly, from what I've gotten in training, if you fall behind you have no one but yourself to blame. JetBlue gives you all the tools you need to succeed, be it manuals, computer programs or a pilot mentor that's available to help you out. I went from a Seminole to a CRJ, and it wasn't that difficult if I applied myself. Sure, I was behind a bit the first few months, but I "got it" not too long after that. The problem comes when you have to do something outside of the profile. Sure, you might be able to fly a single engine go around profile with the best of them, but what about coming into a terminal area filled with thunderstorms, low on fuel and no alternate because the weather came out of no where? I'd take the Cape Air 402 guys or a CFI with experience over a 200 hour Jet U guy any day of the week there. THAT'S the kind of stuff that helps out. What I meant by previous airline training is knowing how to study and what for. I'm actually confused a lot of times here because I try to OVERSTUDY. Pinnacle had a profile for an ILS, a different one for a non-precision approach, different profiles for go arounds on single engine and two engine, etc, etc. JetBlue doesn't really even HAVE profiles per say. The ones we DO have are more or less the same thing. Single engine go around is the same as a two engine, with the exception of what speed you set at 1000 ft. In the CFM at Pinnacle we had all these profiles we needed to learn verbatim. Nothing like that in the FCOM over here. I think there may be like one or two charts that KIND of look like that. The focus here is on threat and error management, not flying profiles to the letter. If you work as a team to keep from making errors, that's the take away.


Procedures went much better today. Started out in Vegas with a deferred APU. Yeah, WTF, right? Anyway, did the airstart and crossbleed stuff. Took off and did the RNAV departure with crossing restrictions to get used to the VNAV setup. Started an RNAV arrival into LAX, more VNAV with crossing restrictions, then a hold on the arrival. Get set up for a CAT IIIB approach with the HUD. Fly that to a go around. Reset, do the same thing, but I have to do the go around as the CA apparently died on the approach. Hold off the missed and come back for a LOC approach. MUCH better today since I knew where to look and how to set it up. The FTD wanted to screw me over as the autothrottles keep doing crazy things like slowing down when I was already too slow or speeding up when I was already doing 250 kts below 10,000. Went down to MDA, did another go around, and that was it for the day. Tomorrow is the last day of procedures training, pick up my uniform on Monday and off to the sims on Wednesday for manuevers.
 
Dont worry about the LOC stuff. That stuff kicked my @ss a few times in the MFTD when I was first learning at my current airline. But by the time my checkride came around it was easy breezy.

As for training at the regional level, from my very limited experience, is vastly different from the Majors/Legacy carriers. I dont think the dummy'd down stuff is limited to Pinnacle. I think its for all regionals because its a "stepping stone" to the big airlines. A majority of regional pilots came from flying Cessna 172s and Piper Seminoles. So they pretty much had to walk you through everything and spell out everything for you, in the sense of, drop gear at this point, at this speed or distance bring in your flaps, etc....They left very little room for ad lib'ing because the new hires had very little experience. At the Majors, its completely different tone, because of the experience their new hires are coming in with. 5 out of six of us had TPIC experience, and thousands upon thousands of 121 experience. So they can let out the leash a little.

The part that makes sense to me at the Majors, that should still make sense at the regionals is some of the memory items. At my current airline, if its placarded, we didnt have to memorize it. if you have immediate access to that info, why must we be tested on the memorization of it?

But yes, as Kellwolf said, if we had no prior airline experience the training at the Majors would kick our butts. But because we have it, its definitely a lot easier. I know I was a lot more relaxed during my training at my current place, than I was at my first airline.
 
Last day of procedures in the FTD. Did a low vis takeoff with the HUD, more re-routes in the FMS, then back for an RNP approach to 13L. Briefing the approach, we realized we can't even do it in the real world as the E190 doesn't have auto sequencing to the missed approach on the go around of an RNP approach. I've heard this is one of the top things they want on the next upgrade for the FMS system. The Airbus just got it not too long ago, so I imagine the 190 will get it sometime next year. Missed approach off the RNP, vectors back around for the LOC 4R. Done with that part. Back up in the air for some emergency situations. First was just a failure on Eng 1 with a relight using the QRH. Next was an engine fire on #2. It's going to take me a bit to get in the swing of how jetBlue does their confirmations during emergencies. It's pretty similar to the what Pinnacle did, but the nomenclature is just different enough to trip me up.

Off for a couple of days and start full motion sims on Wednesday.
 
Hey, I just wanted to say thanks for taking the time for doing the write up. I know many have said thanks already but I just wanted to echo them. I am not at an airline or even close to anything like that but it is very interesting to read how it all works with training and such. So thanks man.
 
Kellwolf - Do you guys still get darts over there? I asked one of your coworkers about it and he said they are randomly given out and some pilots may never get one but that was years ago. Do they expire?
 
Jet said:
Kellwolf - Do you guys still get darts over there? I asked one of your coworkers about it and he said they are randomly given out and some pilots may never get one but that was years ago. Do they expire?
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They're in the process of re-vamping the program from what I've heard. It's a complete random thing. If you get one, you get ONE for your whole career here, so a lot of guys a careful who they give it to. It doesn't expire, though.

There are multiple "gateways" to getting interviews at jetBlue. Standard application is one, open houses, blue darts and bridge programs are others.
 
So, finally go into the full motion sim last night. Got to see a lot of stuff that either didn't work in the FTDs or were just represented by cardboard cut outs, the O2 mask being one of them. It's a little different than the one in the CRJ, but still pretty simple. The test is a bit different, but easier once you get the hang of it. It's pretty intimidating on paper (the wording of the O2 test takes up almost half a page in the FCOM), but once you actually do it, it's an "Oh yeah!" moment.

Last night was essentially an intro to "this is how the airplane flies." Normal takeoff, steep turns, turning different dampening systems off to see the difference if they fail, ILS approach to a landing, LOC approach to a landing, TCAS RA, wake turbulence on take off, wake turbulence on approach leading to a go around, visual approaches (which the sim does QUITE well, flew a whole traffic pattern) and I think that was pretty much it. With the steep turns, the HUD makes it almost like cheating. There's no scan involved if you use the flight path indicator since every bit of info you need is right there. Keep the horizon line (which has your heading on it) going right through the center of the FPI, and you won't lose more than 10 feet of altitude. There's a trend vector on the FPI that shows your speed and one that shows your acceleration, so you can adjust the power using that. First turn, I lost 100 feet. Second turn I lost 40. Last two, I lost 5. Speed was constant on all four. At this point, I've decided I REALLY like the HUD. :)

Still getting used to the ram horn yoke. My arm was sore this morning mainly because a) I'm using the OTHER arm since I've been on the other seat for the past several years b) the angle of the yoke works a different set of muscles (it feels like it at least) than the CRJ yoke c) I haven't touched an airplane in a month.

Tonight, we do a couple of the same things, but then we start doing V1 cuts, single engine approaches and single engine go arounds. AQP is nice because there's no transitioning. There is a LOT crammed into each lesson, though. What winds up happening is a lot of snap shots, repositioning and canned "this is how we can re-set up the FMS in less than a minute. Okay? Go."
 
Wait until you get a pretty stiff crosswind from the left. That's really the only time I don't like the "ram's head." It feels more like you're "pulling up" instead of "turning the plane into the wind. Works yet another, different, set of muscles. Crosswind from the right, no prob. Feels like you're pushing down on the yoke instead of pulling up. Of course, I'm probably just a big baby and need to lift more weights.
 
I've never gotten used to the rams horn, and think it's the worst design decision emb has made on their aircraft.
 
jtrain609 said:
I've never gotten used to the rams horn, and think it's the worst design decision emb has made on their aircraft.
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Compounds the problem if the PM is kinda relaxing and you have to make a sharp wind correction. BAM! Sorry about your knee cap. We'll get a wheelchair for you so you don't have to hobble to the next gate.
 
kellwolf said:
Compounds the problem if the PM is kinda relaxing and you have to make a sharp wind correction. BAM! Sorry about your knee cap. We'll get a wheelchair for you so you don't have to hobble to the next gate.
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You quickly get used to keeping your knees in on these things. Trust me, it won't happen that many more times.
 
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