Got the call, offered the job and said thanks, but no thanks

NickH said:
Thank you for taking the time to write a long and detailed post.

I think much of the criticism directed toward Lakes comes from comparing it to other career choices. I chose to fly freight, I have a personal knowledge of that, so let's use AMF as an example. The key here is that it's a different industry. AMF isn't a great company in the sector, and nor is it the worst.

You need 1200 hours to get hired.

You'll start in a chieftain earning as much as a five year Great Lakes Captain.

You'll upgrade quickly. Six months to a 99 and start getting some Turbine PIC. 14-16 months you can expect to be flying single pilot in a 1900 or Metro, earning more than any line pilot at Lakes. Some are going to the Metro in less than a year.
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The problem is that most drink the koolaid and feel they are entitled to an airline job before hitting 1200 hours. They are in it for the sprint, not the marathon.

To the OP, thanks for sharing this. I don't know you but I have a ton of respect for you as a fellow instructor and professional aviator. It's nice to see someone else who values self respect.
 
Here's what I don't understand--why doesn't Lakes *lower* their pay? To, say, $10k/year. Or better yet, $8k/year. For captains. Since FOs ought to be paying to have a spot on the seniority list. It would probably be better if everyone worked a 6 on/1 off schedule, too.

Why, you ask, would this make Lakes a BETTER place? It's easy...by abusing the workers more, they'll leave faster! That means FAST FAST FAST upgrade times for everyone. Because really, this whole industry is about upgrading as fast as possible. Nothing else matters. The key to getting a good job is to accept a string of lousy jobs.

Do I need to add a sarcasm tag?

I don't understand why I keep throwing myself in to conversations like this. I honestly don't care if a person goes to Lakes or not. It just baffles me as to how this logic makes sense to anyone. When do the "stepping stone" jobs end, and a pilot says, "Gee, I've worked really hard to get here. Maybe I should be able to make a living now."
 
jrh said:
Here's what I don't understand--why doesn't Lakes *lower* their pay? To, say, $10k/year. Or better yet, $8k/year. For captains. Since FOs ought to be paying to have a spot on the seniority list. It would probably be better if everyone worked a 6 on/1 off schedule, too.

Why, you ask, would this make Lakes a BETTER place? It's easy...by abusing the workers more, they'll leave faster! That means FAST FAST FAST upgrade times for everyone. Because really, this whole industry is about upgrading as fast as possible. Nothing else matters. The key to getting a good job is to accept a string of lousy jobs.

Do I need to add a sarcasm tag?

I don't understand why I keep throwing myself in to conversations like this. I honestly don't care if a person goes to Lakes or not. It just baffles me as to how this logic makes sense to anyone. When do the "stepping stone" jobs end, and a pilot says, "Gee, I've worked really hard to get here. Maybe I should be able to make a living now."
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Well how about you come up with some better options then. Say I would have kept "flight instructing". Well, I would have probably never furthered my career in the amount of time I did because I was instructing 20-30 hours a month. Then I went to doing ferry flights, I made better money but it was hit or miss. In the 9 months I flight instructed and made ferry flights, I made approximately $3,500 less than I did at Great Lakes. I know our profession is not the only one with low paying "stepping stone" jobs. Congratulations, you and some other folks could hold out for some better jobs; daddy's payroll, supporting spouse, right place at the right time, whatever. I was laid off from Bombardier FlexJet, wife in college, an 8 month old, some severance pay and savings; I decided to take my private pilot and 150 hours and turn that into a Commercial, CFI/II/MEI in less than three months. I took many risks, but worked hard to get to whatever next step was available. It was rough the past few years, but its paid off with persistence.

I take it personally offensive that you discredit any opportunity available in this competitive industry when you can't speak for everyone and their personal circumstances. At the time, I was better off going to GLA, and it paid off. It can pay off for others too! Try and just get over yourselves and see that what Lakes does is give our fellow colleagues an opportunity, maybe not a great opportunity, but it may work for them and help them further their careers.
 
jhugz said:
It's sad when people in this industry view crew time in a single pilot airplane, in an environment that really isn't all that challenging, as the gold standard.
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Yes jimmy, because Beech SIC's are pretty much worthless.
 
The point is that there are low paying stepping stone jobs paying twice as much and giving better experience.
 
NickH said:
The point is that there are low paying stepping stone jobs paying twice as much and giving better experience.
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I am sure there are! Unfortunately, those opportunities are not always open and some of our fellow pilots have a better chance at Great Lakes Airlines than sitting around waiting for something that may not come around when they need it.
 
You may not have been able to make more than $14,000 as a flight instructor, but I suspect you are in the minority. I know I made twice that, and I'd be surprised if that was above average. Based on your postings from a couple of years ago, it really seems like it wasn't something you enjoyed doing very much.

On the other hand, you've been defending Lakes since you showed up for training. You only managed to work there for six months due to the low income, yet argue that it's a good choice?

I'm guessing you were hired by Lakes with very low time, below IFR minimums.
 
I appreciate all the comments and advice. I'm the only pilot in my family and outside of my friends from instructing I don't have too many people to share stories and get some advice from. I joined JC a few days before my CSEL checkride, before I was a lurker, and have learned a great amount from you guys and your shared experiences. I even met one of the JCers at the school I got my CFI at, he was very helpful and let me teach some of his students on the ground and in the sim to help me learn how to teach.

One the day I got the call I had already made my decision, but I never expected to have to make it. It's easy to know the answer to a question that you never expected to actually occur. I called my first flight instructor who kind of leaned towards me taking it, then I called a few friends. My PPL and CMEL DPE certainly didn't dance around the issue, he was real firm about his opinion that it was not in my best interest. My IR and MEI DPE was a little more cautious, but stated he didn't want to explicitly say whether I should say yes or no, and after I told him I said no he was very pleased. My boss was the same, he wants me to get a good job and lets me take his ME students so I can get the time but also said that this isn't the best thing for me. A Southwest FO friend reacted similar to my IR and MEI DPE, I spoke with him minutes after the interview and before I made the decision who reaffirmed my original stance. There were a few times before I made the return call to turn down the class offer where I legitimately thought I was going to say yes, but I had to weigh the pros and cons and risking my QoL for such a gamble in terms of furthering my career quickly didn't make sense.

Aviator_Bakeek said:
I am not going to pick on you for your reasoning to go or not go to Lakes, but with the wealth of information on here about Great Lakes you didn't have to interview there to figure out it wasn't for you for the reason you stated in this thread. I flew at Great Lakes, and out of about 5 guys below 1000TT, only one person didn't wash out so I wouldn't think that your over qualified for the position...if anything, statistics are probably less in your favor.
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That makes me feel better and I never said that I was overqualified, that was another poster commenting on their pay. Am I ready for an airline? You know, I'd like to say yes but I honestly don't know and it's very possible, and more likely, that I am not. I easily could have been one of those sub 1,000hr guys to not make the cut, then I'd have to go back to instructing with my tail between my legs.

I love instructing and I'm going to just continue to teach my students and soak up as much knowledge and experience as I can. Being an airline pilot has been my dream since I was 5 and we flew to Orlando for our summer vacation, I have learned a whole lot about how the life isn't as glamorous as one might think but it's still my goal. I had an offer to go to a class with the chance at being a pilot for a small airline, and it feels good to have had that opportunity but it also makes me feel good that I turned it down in good conscience. I know I'm a low hour guy, my time will come one day, it just wasn't this time.
 
NickH said:
Well done. You have too much experience and are too skilled for Great Lakes.
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I disagree with this statement. Great Lakes pilots are some of the best in the industry. They hand fly everything and are without a GPS. They can build the airplane from the ground up as well. To say that you are too "skilled" to work for them is ridiculous. Their pay is horrible and the QOL as well but you can't say anything bad about the pilot besides they work for pennies.
 
dufur2003 said:
They hand fly everything and are without a GPS.
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Just to stir the pot:

Alot (if not most) 121 training failures are due to not understanding the automation. I understand the importance of being able to hand fly but understanding the automation is emphasized exponentially more.

Question: Is hand flying still a skill that translates to the modern 121world.

Personally, its not a special skill unless you're SPIFR because any decent IFR rated pilot "should" be able to hand fly.

...but maybe I'm wrong....thoughts?

**I leave the GPS portion out of it...I believe flying without a GPS isn't special** (I flew caravans 135 and colgan Saabs all /A)
 
dufur2003 said:
I disagree with this statement. Great Lakes pilots are some of the best in the industry. They hand fly everything and are without a GPS. They can build the airplane from the ground up as well. To say that you are too "skilled" to work for them is ridiculous. Their pay is horrible and the QOL as well but you can't say anything bad about the pilot besides they work for pennies.
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If the pilots are so awesome, why aren't they doing a better job? Aren't they skilled enough for something better? Or are their skills only worth 14K a year?
 
NickH said:
You may not have been able to make more than $14,000 as a flight instructor, but I suspect you are in the minority. I know I made twice that, and I'd be surprised if that was above average. Based on your postings from a couple of years ago, it really seems like it wasn't something you enjoyed doing very much.

On the other hand, you've been defending Lakes since you showed up for training. You only managed to work there for six months due to the low income, yet argue that it's a good choice?

I'm guessing you were hired by Lakes with very low time, below IFR minimums.
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Well I bet you wouldn't like instructing much either if all you ever did was hang around a flight school without pay for months and logging a majority of your time at that school giving tours to people with no interest in starting lessons (tours were not paid and rarely tipped). Then when I actually started "outside" flying, I was criticized and chastised for not being available for another F'ing tour. After sacrificing everything for my career, even almost my family's food and shelter, to pursue a career and making near nothing...yeah I HATED instructing.

You miss the point of what I was trying to discuss about Great Lakes. It doesn't matter how long you stay, as long as you can get out of it whatever is right for you. For me, it was 10 months and 600+ hours. That progressed me to the position I am in now flying 135 cargo in a Falcon 20 making better money then if I would be at any regional on second year pay. And yes, I was the second lowest in time with 600+/- total and the only one under a about 1100TT that made it through the entire training.

In the long run, it worked for me. It doesn't mean it will work for everyone and it may work out better for someone else.
 
Aviator_Bakeek said:
That progressed me to the position I am in now flying 135 cargo in a Falcon 20 making better money then if I would be at any regional on second year pay.
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Preston, did Cherry Air increase they're pay? when I talked to them 2 years ago the pay was ...terrible...and they were on the brink of closing shop? Guessing something changed?
 
Now you've got me all fired up...

Aviator_Bakeek said:
Well how about you come up with some better options then.
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You're acting like you had no other options in the whole wide world compared to Lakes.

It's not my job to plan out someone else's career. I don't know what is going to work best for everyone.

What I can do, is offer advice which will hopefully put people on a path to success and happiness with their career. I'm trying to pay it forward. That means I might not know what they *should* do, but I'm relatively sure of what they *shouldn't* do.

Obviously you found the pay scale at Lakes to be acceptable. Personally, I do not. I guess it's better than paying for a job, but I don't know of anyone who considers $14k/year "livable." I understand pilots need to pay their dues and whatnot, but as soon as a job's pay falls below "livable" it ought to get crossed off EVERYONE's list, regardless of their experience level, or other opportunities the job offers.

Aviator_Bakeek said:
Say I would have kept "flight instructing". Well, I would have probably never furthered my career in the amount of time I did because I was instructing 20-30 hours a month.
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Maybe you should have moved to a busier flight school then?

Aviator_Bakeek said:
Then I went to doing ferry flights, I made better money but it was hit or miss. In the 9 months I flight instructed and made ferry flights, I made approximately $3,500 less than I did at Great Lakes.
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Well, I'm glad Lakes was a step up for you then. Doesn't mean Lakes is a good place to go though. It just means you were in a really, really bad spot prior to Lakes.

Aviator_Bakeek said:
I know our profession is not the only one with low paying "stepping stone" jobs. Congratulations, you and some other folks could hold out for some better jobs; daddy's payroll, supporting spouse, right place at the right time, whatever.
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I wasn't able to hold out for a better job because of daddy's payroll, a spouse, or any other such fortune. Some might say I've got some "right place at the right time" breaks, but let me tell you--people don't get those breaks out of thin air. They get them because they're constantly putting themselves in positions where breaks are more likely to happen. They get them by knowing when to hold and when to fold.

Want to know how I ended up getting paid really well as an instructor at a really good flight school? I wouldn't settle. I knew my own worth and was willing to walk away if the compensation wasn't there. And when I say, "walk away" I mean it--I'd leave flying all together if I had to. I love flying, but I'm not afraid to do something else if it literally means I can't pay my bills using airplanes. Too many pilots in this industry aren't willing to walk away.

Want to know how I ended up at a really solid commuter airline? I did extensive research on the corporate history/culture/current situation before even applying. I wasn't willing to leave my instructing job for any old place. Again, I was both patient and picky.

Aviator_Bakeek said:
I was laid off from Bombardier FlexJet, wife in college, an 8 month old, some severance pay and savings; I decided to take my private pilot and 150 hours and turn that into a Commercial, CFI/II/MEI in less than three months. I took many risks, but worked hard to get to whatever next step was available. It was rough the past few years, but its paid off with persistence.
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I'm glad it worked out for you. It's still not the way I'd recommend for anyone.

Aviator_Bakeek said:
I take it personally offensive that you discredit any opportunity available in this competitive industry when you can't speak for everyone and their personal circumstances. At the time, I was better off going to GLA, and it paid off. It can pay off for others too! Try and just get over yourselves and see that what Lakes does is give our fellow colleagues an opportunity, maybe not a great opportunity, but it may work for them and help them further their careers.
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Just curious...are you ok with PFT/PFJ places, also? Those have given people opportunities to get ahead, too.

As I said before--I really don't care if somebody goes to Lakes or not. I'm not one of these "Yer bringin' down tha industry!!!!" types. I run my life in such a way that I'll be fine regardless of what other people are doing.

Still, the idea of doing so much work, for so little pay, blows my mind. I think our industry, as a whole, would be a lot better off right now if more people saw it my way. Sorry if that offends you.
 
CFIT99 said:
Question: Is hand flying still a skill that translates to the modern 121world.

Personally, its not a special skill unless you're SPIFR because any decent IFR rated pilot "should" be able to hand fly.

...but maybe I'm wrong....thoughts?
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Yes, absolutely. In fact, IMHO any pilot who doesn't see his hand flying skills as cornerstone to his worth as an aviator needs to re-evaluate what he is doing operating an aircraft.

Let's not forget the real reason why pilots are in the front of that aircraft: to get everyone on the ground alive in the event of an emergency. Any idiot can learn to program an FMS and babysit it while it flies you through the national airspace system. Despite what many 121 guys say, learning an FMS, FGS, glass cockpit, or whatever avionics you want to discuss, really is not all that difficult. It may be the key to successful day-to-day operations, but it is not even close to being your main purpose on that aircraft, nor the most important skillset you possess as a pilot.

It's airmanship that allows a pilot to cope with an emergency and actually fly the airplane when systems are inop, parts of the aircraft are missing, things are on fire, etc.

It is one thing to be able to "make it through training" and successfully operate on the line. It is another to have the depth of experience, judgment, skill, and airmanship to be able to save yourself, your crew, your passengers, and your ship when the chips are down.
 
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