Got the call, offered the job and said thanks, but no thanks

Hacker15e said:
Yes, absolutely. In fact, IMHO any pilot who doesn't see his hand flying skills as cornerstone to his worth as an aviator needs to re-evaluate what he is doing operating an aircraft.

Let's not forget the real reason why pilots are in the front of that aircraft: to get everyone on the ground alive in the event of an emergency. Any idiot can learn to program an FMS and babysit it while it flies you through the national airspace system. Despite what many 121 guys say, learning an FMS, FGS, glass cockpit, or whatever avionics you want to discuss, really is not all that difficult. It may be the key to successful day-to-day operations, but it is not even close to being your main purpose on that aircraft, nor the most important skillset you possess as a pilot.

It's airmanship that allows a pilot to cope with an emergency and actually fly the airplane when systems are inop, parts of the aircraft are missing, things are on fire, etc.

It is one thing to be able to "make it through training" and successfully operate on the line. It is another to have the depth of experience, judgment, skill, and airmanship to be able to save yourself, your crew, your passengers, and your ship when the chips are down.
Click to expand...

This x1000
 
Sorry for the delayed reply, been busy juggling priorities.

jrh said:
Now you've got me all fired up...

You're acting like you had no other options in the whole wide world compared to Lakes.

Not with my time, experience, and wife who refuses to move ;)

It's not my job to plan out someone else's career. I don't know what is going to work best for everyone.

Obviously, I gave you most of the reasons I had and you still don't get it.

Obviously you found the pay scale at Lakes to be acceptable. Personally, I do not. I guess it's better than paying for a job, but I don't know of anyone who considers $14k/year "livable." I understand pilots need to pay their dues and whatnot, but as soon as a job's pay falls below "livable" it ought to get crossed off EVERYONE's list, regardless of their experience level, or other opportunities the job offers.

Pay is absolutely not "acceptable". I believe there needs to be major changes and went into the job knowing that already. And I cried about it when I was there, but I knew why I WAS THERE. I knew the length of time and what needed to happen for me to jump ship or stay...opportunity knocked and I moved forward. However, there are plenty of people there that can make it work so what is "livable" to you isn't the same for everyone else.

Maybe you should have moved to a busier flight school then?

No thanks, I knew I could make 75 hours guarantee at Lakes which was better than the options I had in front of me at that time.

Well, I'm glad Lakes was a step up for you then. Doesn't mean Lakes is a good place to go though. It just means you were in a really, really bad spot prior to Lakes.

Doesn't mean that it's not a good place for everyone. What works for some won't work for others and to each his own.

I wasn't able to hold out for a better job because of daddy's payroll, a spouse, or any other such fortune. Some might say I've got some "right place at the right time" breaks, but let me tell you--people don't get those breaks out of thin air. They get them because they're constantly putting themselves in positions where breaks are more likely to happen. They get them by knowing when to hold and when to fold.

I wish I had your luck and I couldn't agree anymore. I kind of did the same thing at Lakes, I knew when to hold and when to fold but through different circumstances.

Want to know how I ended up getting paid really well as an instructor at a really good flight school? I wouldn't settle. I knew my own worth and was willing to walk away if the compensation wasn't there. And when I say, "walk away" I mean it--I'd leave flying all together if I had to. I love flying, but I'm not afraid to do something else if it literally means I can't pay my bills using airplanes. Too many pilots in this industry aren't willing to walk away.

My wife wouldn't let me do that at this point. Her father flies heavies at a successful 121 freighter and knows that sticking with it is half the battle. Walking away is also difficult when your supporting two other mouths, you are the sole source of income, just made a career investment in a poor economy when you were unemployed eating up your savings.

Want to know how I ended up at a really solid commuter airline? I did extensive research on the corporate history/culture/current situation before even applying. I wasn't willing to leave my instructing job for any old place. Again, I was both patient and picky.

I wanted to go to Eagle more than anything. Based at home, decent pay and work rules. I'm glad I did it my way, from what I can tell my future may be a little brighter.

I'm glad it worked out for you. It's still not the way I'd recommend for anyone.

Thats because it wouldn't work for you...share your opinion but try to consider the fact that a small part of me, and I am sure other silent Lakers, enjoyed the things about the job and we find it offensive when folks bash us cause we made a choice that worked for us.

Just curious...are you ok with PFT/PFJ places, also? Those have given people opportunities to get ahead, too.

Define "ok". I think its a waste of money when you can go to Lakes ;). If you can't figure it out yet, I try to save as much judgement about people and what they do to myself, whether or not I agree with their decisions. I try not to condemn people I know nothing about over the internet. I also believe that those places exist for a reason and one of two things will happen...they will sink or swim. I personally don't know much about them cause I never paid much attention and its out of my "scope". And honestly, even though I prefer those places didn't exist, they have their place and if someone wants to be in this career that bad to pay for a job outright, they deserve whatever comes around from it but I hope the best for the individual.

Still, the idea of doing so much work, for so little pay, blows my mind. I think our industry, as a whole, would be a lot better off right now if more people saw it my way. Sorry if that offends you.

Theres a lot of problems in our industry and I guarantee you all that would happen if Lakes left the existence of the Earth tomorrow, there would be just 300+ hungrier pilots out there fighting for whatever job they could get to support themselves.

Apology not accepted either...not because I am an @$$, but because you think that "more people" should "see it my way". Congratulations, you can have your pedestal.
Click to expand...
 
Aviator_Bakeek said:
Just curious...are you ok with PFT/PFJ places, also? Those have given people opportunities to get ahead, too.

Define "ok". I think its a waste of money when you can go to Lakes ;). If you can't figure it out yet, I try to save as much judgement about people and what they do to myself, whether or not I agree with their decisions. I try not to condemn people I know nothing about over the internet. I also believe that those places exist for a reason and one of two things will happen...they will sink or swim. I personally don't know much about them cause I never paid much attention and its out of my "scope". And honestly, even though I prefer those places didn't exist, they have their place and if someone wants to be in this career that bad to pay for a job outright, they deserve whatever comes around from it but I hope the best for the individual.
Click to expand...

'Define "ok"?'

Seriously?

A simple 'yes' would have sufficed.
 
Oh my. Now I'm really fired up. I'm out traveling the world for the next three days, going to places without internet access. Can't adequately reply using my phone. Will be back soon.
 
jrh said:
Oh my. Now I'm really fired up. I'm out traveling the world for the next three days, going to places without internet access. Can't adequately reply using my phone. Will be back soon.
Click to expand...

Go get fired up!

I won't be responding further since obviously everything you say you expect everyone else to agree with or you think they are wrong.

Have a good trip bud, whatever our disagreements, I still respect the fact that you have an opinion and passion. Nothing bothers me more than people who don't care or never say what they think. What bothers me is people who can't accept that others think differently yet still think they are right.
 
pete2800 said:
I can assure you that I did read your entire response.
Click to expand...

Then do not misconstrue what I say for something which I clearly stated an opinion.

Ever heard the term "you can $#!t is one hand, and wish in the other"? Well, their hands stay rich and mine stays pretty empty...so to speak. I said specifically I "wish" they did not exist. But, they do. Nothing I, you, or anyone else can do about it as long as we are hear bickering over the internet. turning things around on each other or a failure to comprehend what someone is really trying to convey.

I made it pretty clear, if you can't understand my position after this then I got nothing else to help you out and understand.
 
Aviator_Bakeek said:
Then do not misconstrue what I say for something which I clearly stated an opinion.

Ever heard the term "you can $#!t is one hand, and wish in the other"? Well, their hands stay rich and mine stays pretty empty...so to speak. I said specifically I "wish" they did not exist. But, they do. Nothing I, you, or anyone else can do about it as long as we are hear bickering over the internet. turning things around on each other or a failure to comprehend what someone is really trying to convey.

I made it pretty clear, if you can't understand my position after this then I got nothing else to help you out and understand.
Click to expand...

That actually clarifies your original statement significantly. Thanks for the answer.

No sarcasm intended...
 
Aviator_Bakeek said:
Obviously you found the pay scale at Lakes to be acceptable. Personally, I do not. I guess it's better than paying for a job, but I don't know of anyone who considers $14k/year "livable." I understand pilots need to pay their dues and whatnot, but as soon as a job's pay falls below "livable" it ought to get crossed off EVERYONE's list, regardless of their experience level, or other opportunities the job offers.

Pay is absolutely not "acceptable". I believe there needs to be major changes and went into the job knowing that already. And I cried about it when I was there, but I knew why I WAS THERE. I knew the length of time and what needed to happen for me to jump ship or stay...opportunity knocked and I moved forward. However, there are plenty of people there that can make it work so what is "livable" to you isn't the same for everyone else.
Click to expand...

Pay is not acceptable? Then why did you accept it??? I don't understand people who claim a place's pay/work rules/whatever are unacceptable, yet they keep showing up to work. By showing up, you are stating, beyond any doubt, that you consider the compensation to be acceptable.

Whenever a pilot says, "Pay wasn't acceptable, BUT..." they're really saying, "Yeah, it's cool, I don't mind being treated like crap since I'm trying to get ahead."

If it's what they want to do, fine, but let's at least be honest about what's happening.

Aviator_Bakeek said:
Maybe you should have moved to a busier flight school then?

No thanks, I knew I could make 75 hours guarantee at Lakes which was better than the options I had in front of me at that time.
Click to expand...

So you were in it for the money? Or the flight time? Which was it? Because when you start talking about making a 75 hour guarantee, it sounds like you *did* care about money...in which case you chose terribly.

Aviator_Bakeek said:
Well, I'm glad Lakes was a step up for you then. Doesn't mean Lakes is a good place to go though. It just means you were in a really, really bad spot prior to Lakes.

Doesn't mean that it's not a good place for everyone. What works for some won't work for others and to each his own.
Click to expand...

Ok, I'll agree with you here. I understand everyone's circumstances are different. I guess the thing I'd point out is that the same statement could be made about almost any operation, no matter how low down, sleazy, nasty of a place it is. Not calling Lakes a sleazy place, just saying the logic is flawed. Your statement can be used to justify anything as long as you get ahead in the end.

Aviator_Bakeek said:
Want to know how I ended up getting paid really well as an instructor at a really good flight school? I wouldn't settle. I knew my own worth and was willing to walk away if the compensation wasn't there. And when I say, "walk away" I mean it--I'd leave flying all together if I had to. I love flying, but I'm not afraid to do something else if it literally means I can't pay my bills using airplanes. Too many pilots in this industry aren't willing to walk away.

My wife wouldn't let me do that at this point. Her father flies heavies at a successful 121 freighter and knows that sticking with it is half the battle. Walking away is also difficult when your supporting two other mouths, you are the sole source of income, just made a career investment in a poor economy when you were unemployed eating up your savings.
Click to expand...

If that's not a good argument for avoiding Lakes, I don't know what is.

See, this is what I'm getting at: What if things *don't* go according to plan? What if you had gone to Lakes, not been able to feed your family because of the absurdly low pay, then to top it all off, *not* gotten a better job after your time at Lakes? You would've pissed away a bunch of time AND money for nothing. You were putting all your eggs in one basket, hoping for the best.

Would you have moved to some other crappy job, hoping for the best? How low must you go before throwing in the towel?

If your father in law is flying heavy freighters at a 121 carrier, I'm guessing he came from an old school generation, from which a person really did have a light at the end of the tunnel. Stick with the super crappy places long enough and eventually you'll land yourself that golden job, making $200k/year, working 10 days/month. It'll all pay off if you can just stick with it long enough.

Thing is, I'm convinced the traditional dream job is dead. Sure, pilots will move up, but what is waiting for them at the end of the line? Is it worth sacrificing this much now, for what's coming later? I don't think it is. Pilots need to demand more from the low end because the high end just ain't there anymore to balance it all out. And therefore, I think your father in law is giving bad advice.

By the way, this is a good time to mention I'm not writing all this for *you.* I'm writing it for all the low time pilots lurking on this forum, trying to figure out what the next step in their career ought to be. I have nothing against you, and really my argument against Lakes for you is a moot point since you've already come and gone through there. I'm trying to propagate my philosophy on to the upcoming generation of pilots because, yes, I do think I'm right and we'd all be better off if more pilots held my view.

Aviator_Bakeek said:
I'm glad it worked out for you. It's still not the way I'd recommend for anyone.

Thats because it wouldn't work for you...share your opinion but try to consider the fact that a small part of me, and I am sure other silent Lakers, enjoyed the things about the job and we find it offensive when folks bash us cause we made a choice that worked for us.
Click to expand...

I'm not bashing you. I'm cautioning others how what you did isn't a great idea under most circumstances.

Aviator_Bakeek said:
Just curious...are you ok with PFT/PFJ places, also? Those have given people opportunities to get ahead, too.

Define "ok". I think its a waste of money when you can go to Lakes ;). If you can't figure it out yet, I try to save as much judgement about people and what they do to myself, whether or not I agree with their decisions. I try not to condemn people I know nothing about over the internet. I also believe that those places exist for a reason and one of two things will happen...they will sink or swim. I personally don't know much about them cause I never paid much attention and its out of my "scope". And honestly, even though I prefer those places didn't exist, they have their place and if someone wants to be in this career that bad to pay for a job outright, they deserve whatever comes around from it but I hope the best for the individual.
Click to expand...

That's a lot of words for a "Yes" answer.

Aviator_Bakeek said:
Still, the idea of doing so much work, for so little pay, blows my mind. I think our industry, as a whole, would be a lot better off right now if more people saw it my way. Sorry if that offends you.

Theres a lot of problems in our industry and I guarantee you all that would happen if Lakes left the existence of the Earth tomorrow, there would be just 300+ hungrier pilots out there fighting for whatever job they could get to support themselves.
Click to expand...

I never said I wanted Lakes to disappear, I'm saying I want them to pay a respectable wage. Or rather, I want pilots to show more self-respect and quit working at places like Lakes until Lakes treats them better.

I mean really, I can't even blame Lakes for treating their pilots so poorly. Why shouldn't they? Everyone still keeps showing up.

Aviator_Bakeek said:
Apology not accepted either...not because I am an @$$, but because you think that "more people" should "see it my way". Congratulations, you can have your pedestal.
Click to expand...

I never apologized to you for anything.

My closing phrase, "Sorry if that offends you," could have been used interchangeably with "Too bad if that offends you."
 
Big question is the $16k you make your first year worth building that time instead of working your way to 1200 hrs to go to Amf? And does working at Lakes look better then AMF.
 
NickH said:
Better then to work at McDonalds or as a flight instructor.
Click to expand...
McDonalds is right across the airport from me.... they were looking for a BD700 captain/chief pilot... Not such a bad place to work when you get a 1 month sabbatical, and 70k starting...
 
KHanson said:
McDonalds is right across the airport from me.... they were looking for a BD700 captain/chief pilot... Not such a bad place to work when you get a 1 month sabbatical, and 70k starting...
Click to expand...
Yes, but do you have to dress up in the clown gear? That's the real question. If so can I take the frilly collar off at altitude? How are those giant shoes during V1 cuts?
 
I get all the angst about Great Lakes I guess, but I'm not sure I agree with it. To say that GL's "drags the industry down" (which is a laughable concept today - see the bygone era thread) is funny. To see the people that rip on Silver Airways because they used to be Gulfstream is funny. I guess my position is that the guys flying RJ's on formerly mainline routes for $25 per hour or so are doing more "harm to the industry" than anyone at Great Lakes. Now, does that make GL's a good job - absolutely not - it may be crappy, or it may be great - depends on the person. The idea that Great Lakes is impacting anyone other than 19 seat airplane drivers flying EAS routes with there pay is kind of silly. I wonder how the math breaks out with someone flying a 19 seat airliner and their cost vs. someone that is flying a large RJ and their cost? Whose getting more per passenger? If GL went away, would those routes be flown by mainline in mainline equipment at mainline pay? I bet a ton of RJ routes would be. Fairly certain that no GL routes would be. So, if you fly an RJ and you are commenting on this thread about GL "bringing down the industry" I would love to hear about how you are NOT "bringing down the industry" and how you are somehow morally superior to GL pilots.
 
WacoFan said:
I get all the angst about Great Lakes I guess, but I'm not sure I agree with it. To say that GL's "drags the industry down" (which is a laughable concept today - see the bygone era thread) is funny. To see the people that rip on Silver Airways because they used to be Gulfstream is funny. I guess my position is that the guys flying RJ's on formerly mainline routes for $25 per hour or so are doing more "harm to the industry" than anyone at Great Lakes. Now, does that make GL's a good job - absolutely not - it may be crappy, or it may be great - depends on the person. The idea that Great Lakes is impacting anyone other than 19 seat airplane drivers flying EAS routes with there pay is kind of silly. I wonder how the math breaks out with someone flying a 19 seat airliner and their cost vs. someone that is flying a large RJ and their cost? Whose getting more per passenger? If GL went away, would those routes be flown by mainline in mainline equipment at mainline pay? I bet a ton of RJ routes would be. Fairly certain that no GL routes would be. So, if you fly an RJ and you are commenting on this thread about GL "bringing down the industry" I would love to hear about how you are NOT "bringing down the industry" and how you are somehow morally superior to GL pilots.
Click to expand...

To be fair, there are many companies that are still flying these same sized airframes. They may not have the seats in the back anymore, but the airframe is the same. If management looks at companies out there and sees what people are willing to take as pay for their TPIC time they have 0 reason to increase rates. Would you want to pay your employees more if everyone else pays less for essentially the same job?

The worst part is that GL pilots get paid less and have to work MORE than I do. It is really backward there.
 
pnwchief22 said:
Was it the non paid training and $7500 payment for leaving under any circumstances that created some doubt on their intentions?
Click to expand...

What if you're mobilized? Has that case ever been brought up? I know reservists and guard members are covered under USERRA, I just wonder if that was or has been an issue with GL or any other airline.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top