Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
Who is this directed towards?
If it was me I was advocating FOR hand flying more often.
In fact a few trips ago I hand flew IAD-GSP just for grins. I like flying. I hate watching TV.
Delta Flowthroughs and 35% ALPA DCI Hires
- Thread starter bronco21016
- Start date
Who is this directed towards?
If it was me I was advocating FOR hand flying more often.
In fact a few trips ago I hand flew IAD-GSP just for grins. I like flying. I hate watching TV.
PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
If directed at me, I'm not suggesting you always turn on the autopilot immediately. But pilots should use it more during high workload times, and times when the aircraft needs to be precisely flown, like RNAV departures.
I hand fly as much as possible during low workload approaches, up to altitude, etc. I've flown several long legs at altitude due to AP deferrals.
It's not a question of skill. It's a fact that SA drops during high workload times, and the AP is a safety measure to protect against loss of SA. (Even minor losses of SA that you don't even notice.)
Cav
Former Maddog Whisperer
I agree, no reason you shouldn't be able to but when it comes to RNAV we're talking razor think margins. On the 75/76 the flight direct lags enough from the scheduled FMS driven flight path during RNAV departures that you can screw it up even when you think you're dead nuts on. It can be done easily but meh. In all honesty, the RNAV stuff is so high profile these days that I just turn the magic on and save the air show for another time...like the NYC airports...you know real airspace with controllers who don't have their thumb up their @&$es because of some stupid RNAV dept.
Hmm, another reason to avoid ATL!
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
I agree, no reason you shouldn't be able to but when it comes to RNAV we're talking razor think margins. On the 75/76 the flight direct lags enough from the scheduled FMS driven flight path during RNAV departures that you can screw it up even when you think you're dead nuts on. In all honesty, wthe RNAV stuff is so high profile these days that I just turn the magic in and save the air show for another time...like the NYC airports...you know real airspace with controllers who don't have their thumb up their @&$es because of some stupid RNAV dept.
The whole AP on at 500' in the ERJ has a few problems that I'm sure you're aware of being that you're such a highspeed/standard guy, and always turned it on at 500'
Nark
Macho Superpilot
It was more directed at philosopher pilot.
I rarely let George fly the RNAV departures. I fly until the transition. The plane I fly is natorious for doing weird stuff when you least expect it. It is highly-highly automated. By the mere fact I'm flying, I'm able to catch any anomilies much quicker.
Also depending on vectors and being slam dunked, I'm able to smoothly capture the approach.
To say I dont have the same level of SA is ludicrous.
Watching captains try to hand fly after a year of being an autopilot champion scares the crap out of me.
Hand flying is a perishable skill. Please don't forget that.
I rarely let George fly the RNAV departures. I fly until the transition. The plane I fly is natorious for doing weird stuff when you least expect it. It is highly-highly automated. By the mere fact I'm flying, I'm able to catch any anomilies much quicker.
Also depending on vectors and being slam dunked, I'm able to smoothly capture the approach.
To say I dont have the same level of SA is ludicrous.
Watching captains try to hand fly after a year of being an autopilot champion scares the crap out of me.
Hand flying is a perishable skill. Please don't forget that.
I think you missed the point, which is to say that when things are not going well it is better to use the automation so you can free up more brain cells for more important things than hand flying an airplane.
PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
By definition, if you are paying close enough attention to fly the RNAV departure properly (which still is less accurate than the autopilot btw) then you are NOT as aware of your surroundings as you could be.
If you are closely following the FD, can you also look out the window for traffic? Can you focus attention on your FMS? Your engines?
I'm not saying that your SA is deficient. I'm saying it isn't as good as it could be when you are hand flying.
As far as perishable skill, of course it is. Pump up your skill on legs where there aren't. RNAV departures, and when there is margin for error.
Btw, this isn't controversial. This has been studied in great detail, but pilots with egos the size of freight trains don't want to accept it.
Nark
Macho Superpilot
No, I see the argument.
Our company ethos is "you can't fix automation with automation"
We even have a stupid acronym CAMI, where I is 'intervene.' I agree with it.
My point is that is see some folks are relying too much on automation.
I've expirienced it, I've seen others expirience the atrophy of not flying.
I'm not a grizzled 121 vet, but I can see the writing on the wall.
Our company ethos is "you can't fix automation with automation"
We even have a stupid acronym CAMI, where I is 'intervene.' I agree with it.
My point is that is see some folks are relying too much on automation.
I've expirienced it, I've seen others expirience the atrophy of not flying.
I'm not a grizzled 121 vet, but I can see the writing on the wall.
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
The CRJ autopilot must be a lot better then the ERJ autopilot. I have never done a v1 cut in the sim and turned on the autopilot.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Yes, yes, and yes. You should never be staring at the F/D so intently that you lose the rest of your SA.
RRPower
Well-Known Member
People who keep saying use the AP on RNAV departures for "precision" flying are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Fly the airplane, keep it in the FD...pay attention and have fun. Lord knows the RJ can barely fly an RNAV departure with wind...stop worrying so much and be a pilot.
PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
That's probably going to change. It's one of the big culture differences of our groups. One of the harmonizations coming is getting your group to use the AP during emergencies.
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
We don't work for the same company. But I can tell you the autopilot is useless in the ERJ on V1 cuts because the yaw damper is useless. On fire and you want to do more then 250 below 10,000 can't use the autopilot. Coming out of YUL and they ask you to do 280 below 10K can't use the autopilot. The ERJ autopilot is a POS.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
You guys getting the ops specs changed for that, too? Because I was under the impression that's why the AP doesn't fly single engine approaches for us.
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
I have a theory that our autopilot is a drunken gnome in the avionics bay with a PFD and a yoke.
It does pretty well on most things, but watching it intercept a localizer with any kind of crosswind is an airshow waiting to happen. Speed mode is also pretty ridiculous.
I understand and agree with the fact that your SA is increased when flying with the autopilot on. It does free up brain cells to watch and monitor what is going on. My argument is mostly that if we do things the way we are supposed to do them, an RNAV departure probably shouldn't be THAT labor intensive. I understand that people have been screwing up the departures, but I think stressing autopilot usage so that we can catch our errors is treating a symptom, and not the cause.
I am a color inside the lines guy. I will fly the airplane the way the company tells me to fly it to the best of my ability. If they came out tomorrow and said we need the autopilot on at 600' and off at mins, I'd do it. I'd bitch and moan about it, but I'd do it.
But, I don't think that would fix all of our problems. Every checklist revision seems to have one extra flap verification and one extra repetition of the altimeter setting. All good ideas. But I bet we still have crews that mess it up. I think the source of these problems aren't that we're focused following the pink bars. But rather a combination of complacency of continuously operating inside our comfort zone and the repetitive nature of our jobs. I think emphasis needs to be placed on preparing and briefing correctly, COMBINED with a stronger emphasis on the pilot monitoring role.
In the grand scheme of things, I think having the autopilot on for an RNAV departure will help catch the following errors. HDG bug set incorrectly and wrong mode selected from the autopilot. But take off with the wrong departure or runway selected? Your departure is STILL going to be messed up while you try to recover from that.
As for the pilot monitoring role, I don't think it is taken seriously enough. I don't think we should have limits for how far out of whack your flying needs to be before the other guy has to say something. We should be pushing for as perfect a flight as we can get every single time. Frequent communication by the PM would also lesson the "offensiveness" that some people feel when they are corrected.
Technology can help in these things, but it can't be a crutch. I'd love to see some sort of EFB show up and not having to lug around my jep charts is the least exciting thing about that. I'd love to see things like a TOLD card that populates automatically off the latest ATIS, electronic checklists that require actually checking off certain boxes before you can complete the checklist and move onto other things. Then there would be no question as to whether or not it was completed. The things that could be done to help us are endless, but all the company sees are dollar signs. Being cost competitive is important, but I feel they are driving us to be like our cheaper competitors, which ironically, seem to be in or recently recovering from bankruptcy.
Cav
Former Maddog Whisperer
The whole AP on at 500' in the ERJ has a few problems that I'm sure you're aware of being that you're such a highspeed/standard guy, and always turned it on at 500'
Nah but I was well aware of it's limitations. If memory serves the issue was not the lateral but the vertical. I never understood the XJT idea that the ERJ should be dropped into FLC so fast. I never bought the training center line that FLC would meet any and all climb gradient restrictions.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
It'll go into PIT mode if you are moving too slowly when you engage the AP, resulting in the aircraft bugging whatever speed you're at and removing the T/O mode. If you're not paying attention to put the thing into FLC or some other type of vertical mode in short order you'll just end up holding whatever pitch you were in when you turned the AP on.
Low speed takeoff submodes are incredibly strange in the ERJ.
Cav
Former Maddog Whisperer
I'm having nightmares of PC's with Miguel.