Failure

[Beech90]

I need to rant.


I just failed my CFI checkride for the second time. I now have two busts on my record. The first oral was 6 hours, the DPE wanted to retest my knowledge. Second oral ( Today) I passed the FOI's, but I forgot how many cylinders were in the 172, how many spark plus etc and I failed. At first I was mad at the DPE and PISSED at myself, but I'm using my quote "To fail is not to try". I realize this is going to make me a better pilot, and a even better CFI. ( IF I ever get it ) I studied for 3 hours a day for three weeks, and I just forgot the basic basic stuff.
- I took every book possible, my FAR/AIM was like a sticky note pad.
My plan of action: Take a week or two off, watch some videos and retake the test with the FAA. ( Yes I said the FAA. It's Free and I'm running out of money . I also did not like how the DPE conducted the oral. ( I'm not blamming him for failing, I just did not like how he conducted it. [ He had to check to make sure all my FOI answers were "In the book" ] )

Any thoughts/suggestions?

Also, I have a few questions.

• How should I study next time? These past two check rides I make sure I had a basic understanding on everything in the PTS. ( I plan on taking it with the FAA this time) I'm confident in my flying skills.
• What effect, if any will this have on my career? I want to fly for the airlines eventually ( Although I still have to wait 5 years until I'm old enough for the ATP)

 

[flyingbum]

Take a break and relax for at least a couple days. On a checkride we are our own worst enemies. The PTS is standardized, but the human behind it is not. Each DPE or fed will have their own way of doing things. This makes it hard to prepare for what you are going into. Just cover the PTS and know the answers from the airplane flying handbook and the PHAK.

I don't think you are done with 2 checkride failures. Lots of guys out there with more flying professionally.

Dust off, hold your head high and keep at it.

 

[rframe]

That sucks, and I'm sure it's frustrating.

That said, I find it very hard to believe you would fail for forgetting how many cylinders were in a C172 and I suspect there is a lot more to the story, and a pattern that was displeasing to the examiner.

Whether you did or did not know how many cylinders were in the C172 the answer should have been something like, "as we fly different aircraft it's important to become familiar with the systems we're operating, the Pilots Operating Handbook or Airplane Flying Manual provides a good overview of these systems, from the pilot's perspective, and helps us understand some of the operating procedures and critical values we'll need to be monitoring as we fly... let me show you how the POH is laid out and what information it provides about the power plant"....

Remember the CFI exam is a test about teaching skills, not purely a regurgitation of knowledge.

How are you approaching the answers to the questions? Are you giving simple absolute answers, or are you teaching your way through them?

Can you elaborate a bit more on how the oral happened.

How is it that you are testing with a DPE twice but can choose to go to the FAA now? As far as I know all CFI initial tests need to be done with the FAA unless they are too busy and then they assign you a DPE...?

 

[Maurus]

I would think the checkride issue will disappear when the regionals realize they can not get the pilots they want in the future.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Sorry to say it, but basic knowledge of systems is something a pre-solo student should know. If you weren't able to tell him how many cylinders or spark plugs are on the 172, there is no way you should have passed.

 

[derg]

Take some time off and relax. Don't ever walk into a checkride frustrated because you'll second-guess yourself and once you second-guess yourself in a high stress environment like that, bad stuff happens.

Opinion only, of course, but a double-bust on a CFI checkride isn't an ominous as failing your multi-engine instrument, ATP or instrument rides.

Double-bust a non-CFI ride, that's a whole different story IMHO.

 

[Beech90]

That sucks, and I'm sure it's frustrating.

That said, I find it very hard to believe you would fail for forgetting how many cylinders were in a C172 and I suspect there is a lot more to the story, and a pattern that was displeasing to the examiner.
My first oral I said the mags send a spark to the cylinders, then I realized oh • thats wrong, and meant it was the spark plugs. I told him the basic idea of carb heat and I forgot how the induction system in the 172 works. But I could find it within seconds as the POH was highlighted and marked.
Whether you did or did not know how many cylinders were in the C172 the answer should have been something like, "as we fly different aircraft it's important to become familiar with the systems we're operating, the Pilots Operating Handbook or Airplane Flying Manual provides a good overview of these systems, from the pilot's perspective, and helps us understand some of the operating procedures and critical values we'll need to be monitoring as we fly... let me show you how the POH is laid out and what information it provides about the power plant".... That's what I did and he didn't like it. And that is my exact way of thought about teaching. When providing a student with such info, I'm not going to use dry information..but charts and diagrams. The DPE doesn't agree.

Remember the CFI exam is a test about teaching skills, not purely a regurgitation of knowledge.
And that is how I see it. But he doesn't agree, he said it's a knowledge based exam.
How are you approaching the answers to the questions? Are you giving simple absolute answers, or are you teaching your way through them? Both..I was weak on some areas where I had a bsic understanding on the subject so I couldn't go into detail...I would go into detail if I could have used my lesson plans/notes. ( Which Is what most CFI's do in the real world anyway)

Can you elaborate a bit more on how the oral happened.

How is it that you are testing with a DPE twice but can choose to go to the FAA now? As far as I know all CFI initial tests need to be done with the FAA unless they are too busy an then the assign you a DPE...? I live in CO, when I called the FSDO they assigned me the DPE.

 

[derg]

I would think the checkride issue will disappear when the regionals realize they can not get the pilots they want in the future.

I'm not sure I'd put full odds behind the pass line on that one.

 

[Mike H]

What did the DPE say when he de-briefed you after the bust? He did de-brief you, right?

 

[Beech90]

Sorry to say it, but basic knowledge of systems is something a pre-solo student should know. If you weren't able to tell him how many cylinders or spark plugs are on the 172, there is no way you should have passed.

I kind of agree with you. I should have looked at it and reviewed it. But I also fly 6 types of aircraft.

 

[Beech90]

What did the DPE say when he de-briefed you after the bust? He did de-brief you, right

He said that he sees that I have studied and put a lot of time into it ( I brought 10 books in and 130 pages of lesson plans that I made) but I need to be able to teach and explain things better. And I agree except that he assumes I answer the question wrong if I use diagrams, notes, or books to better explain a subject.

With engine systems there is no way to know everything and be able to explain in detail to a new student without using diagrams or notes.

 

[derg]

If I gave you a pencil, paper, and a clipboard — out of the blue — and we were on the first floor in an elevator, could you show me basically how an engine works by the time we reach the 10th floor?

 

[rframe]

I'd request an FAA inspector and tell them you're willing to wait for one, or at least an alternate DPE.

 

[Patrick]

Sorry to say it, but basic knowledge of systems is something a pre-solo student should know. If you weren't able to tell him how many cylinders or spark plugs are on the 172, there is no way you should have passed.

100% agree here. If I had the slightest doubt that a PPL student couldn't answer basic system questions backwards and forwards and upside down, he wouldn't be getting signed off for a PPL check ride. On a CFI ride? I at a loss for words here.

I have a feeling there's a lot more to this story than simply missing one data point, and I have to question the quality of the rest of your answers, if you couldn't answer something as basic as this.

That said, a CFI check ride isn't about regurgitating basic knowledge, it's about proving to a Fed or DPE that you not only know this stuff, but can teach it.

Is this the end of your career? Absolutely not. Go home, take some time off, collect yourself, and before you go for your next try, find a competent CFI buddy and have him grill the SH$T out of you BEFORE you go for the real thing.

 

[Beech90]

If I gave you a pencil, paper, and a clipboard — out of the blue — and we were on the first floor in an elevator, could you show me basically how an engine works by the time we reach the 10th floor

Yes, a basic diagram of it. Could I go into detail? No. If sketched out a basic diagram to someone they would get the basic idea.

 

[Beech90]

100% agree here. If I had the slightest doubt that a PPL student couldn't answer basic system questions backwards and forwards and upside down, he wouldn't be getting signed off for a PPL check ride. On a CFI ride? I at a loss for words here..

I agree with you. I should have studied aircraft systems and reviewed how the engine works. I gave a answer to his question, I didn't teach it. Next time I'm going to go in with diagrams etc.

I'd request an FAA inspector and tell them you're willing to wait for one, or at least an alternate DPE.

I'll probably go with the FAA. They seem to be reasonable on CFI rides.

 

[Inverted]

I kind of agree with you. I should have looked at it and reviewed it. But I also fly 6 types of aircraft.

I was regularly flying 10-14 aircraft when I went up for my CFI ride. If you cannot remember how many cylinders a 172 has, or for that matter, how many spark plugs per cylinder it has, you have zero business being a CFI. You shouldn't be mad at the DPE, I would be mad if he passed you. I actually find it hard to believe, and would love to throw up the BS flag and just give you the benefit of the doubt that you are kidding. I am not trying to kick you while you're down, but man, you need to take a serious look at things if you truly in fact "forgot" how many cylinders a 172 has. I assume he picked the 172 because thats the plane you were going to fly for your ride? Maybe nerves got the best of you during the oral.

The CFI oral is about teaching skills, but it is also a test of your knowledge. There are certain things you HAVE to know. You cannot turn every question back at your student for them to look up. You are expected to have commercial level knowledge, this means having a pretty good level of understanding with regards to the aircraft you are flying.

 

[rframe]

.. find a competent CFI buddy and have him grill the SH$T out of you BEFORE you go for the real thing.

That. Sounds like practice explaining these answers would help a lot. Having somebody knowledgeable listen to you, especially someone who's been through a CFI initial in the past couple years, even if you have to pay them a few hours, would probably be very worthwhile. That'll expose where you are weak technically and help you get to some clearer explanations as you try to teach the stuff.

I kind of agree with you. I should have looked at it and reviewed it. But I also fly 6 types of aircraft.

And you should be able to teach the basics of all of them... there's a lot of information to master for the CFI initial, but basic aircraft systems for the aircraft you are regularly flying isn't something you should need to "cram" for and then forget...

 

[Seggy]

• What effect, if any will this have on my career? I want to fly for the airlines eventually ( Although I still have to wait 5 years until I'm old enough for the ATP)

I am going to assume here that you are 18 years old? You are the second person I know that failed their CFI Checkride multiple times being 18 years old. If/When it comes up in an interview, you might want to use that in the sense that, "I failed my CFI ride twice when I was 18 years old. How I am acting as a XX year old now is different that when I was 18 and I see things differently now yada yada yada yada yada, etc., etc., etc.,".

Just some food for thought in a few years.

 

[derg]

Yes, a basic diagram of it. Could I go into detail? No. If I did that my student would have a rote idea.

I'm talking like a basic combustion cycle — suck squeeze bang blow... and then elucidating what parts of the engine basically handle each part of the cycle to move the crankshaft.

Of course I wasn't there, but when I evaluated students and I asked them the proverbial "What time is it?" I wanted them to tell me the time, not necessarily pull out a Quantum Physics textbook and build me an atomic clock. If he knows his stuff cold, he'll walk me through it fairly easily. If I want to test his depth of knowledge, we can talk specifics and then incorporate diagrams, facts and figures to bolster understanding.