CLASSIFIED TOP SECRET - CIA Ops endangering commercial flights

[staledog]

Why is it so far fetched that there's terrorists out there that want to hurt us for a multitude of reasons and that some of them aren't all that bright?

Well, that is also true. But just because that is true doesn't mean that what Qutch says is necessarily false.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

If Qutch posted that the CIA was endangering the public and commercial airline flights without any background story or proof to back up his claims he is criticized. If he posts proof and background story to put his claims into context he is again criticized. Seems like a paradox to me.

What surprises me the most is that many of the members of JC who are critical of posts regarding the TSA are professionals who must endure the TSA on a regular basis. I will do almost anything to avoid commercial airline flying. The TSA is one of the main reasons.

I wonder how far our government will go to keep us scared and force us into supporting these organizations?

 

[Screaming_Emu]

If Qutch posted that the CIA was endangering the public and commercial airline flights without any background story or proof to back up his claims he is criticized. If he posts proof and background story to put his claims into context he is again criticized. Seems like a paradox to me.

What surprises me the most is that many of the members of JC who are critical of posts regarding the TSA are professionals who must endure the TSA on a regular basis. I will do almost anything to avoid commercial airline flying. The TSA is one of the main reasons.

I wonder how far our government will go to keep us scared and force us into supporting these organizations?

Question unrelated to the thread...who were you before the name change (which I totally approve of btw)

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

Question unrelated to the thread...who were you before the name change (which I totally approve of btw)

bigwavedave

 

[Qutch]

I'm a big fan of Occam's Razor, and everything about this story goes completely against it.

Which story? There are several floating around in what I posted so far. I'd be interested in hearing more on your viewpoint. By "this story", Do you mean the CIA conspiracy to create a scare story that passenger Kurt Haskell theorizes?

Occam's Razor - You are saying that the simpler and more likely explanation = "Al Quida conspiracy to kill" ?
.

 

[rframe]

I can't buy into the argument that the media would aid the government in a cover up ... well except maybe Fox.

The media will gladly accept any sensational crap the government feeds them. Facts are far less important than a good story. Retractions/corrections are always buried somewhere because people dont really care.

 

[rframe]

Why is it so far fetched that there's terrorists out there that want to hurt us for a multitude of reasons and that some of them aren't all that bright?

I dont think anybody is arguing that there aren't. Qutch is suggesting that our own government uses those less-than-bright terrorists for their own gain. I dont think that's any less far fetched.

 

[Cazadores]

I had some questions, Qutch, about your point of view concerning the basic problems I have with the idea DOJ, DHS, State, CIA, and foreign agencies, like the Dutch, with all their varying competencies and members, being able to cooperate and keep its members quiet. I am not being argumentative, you know I agree, for example, with the idea of the FBI setting up that kid in Portland, and for that matter the belief various groups, like AQAP, are being cultivated for the occasional opportunistic demonstration for policy gain, but Northwoods was stopped, and the wheels fell off because Kennedy fired the Bay of Pigs "master minds" and therefore never got beyond a simple idea on paper. Had it, do you think at some point someone, somewhere might slip up, might blow the whistle? When you start flying airplanes, you need crews, ATC, fuelers....you think the USAF might have some Officers who would take exception to sending a couple of Century series fighters from Eglin to "shoot down" a passenger jet in order to start a war? How many people might wonder about an F-86 being modified to look like a MiG and flying to Cuba on a daily basis? Drone boats blowing up? Anyone at any point going to say "Oh yeah, no one on the boat when the SAR arrived on scene, no bodies, nothing..." Now we have an operation requiring the cooperation of CiA, State, DOJ, and the Dutch authorities, and at no point someone, anywhere, in these huge, dynamic, often competing agencies, is saying anything, even just some pillow talk to the wrong prostitute?

See to me it doesn't take a real conspiracy, we know there are bad guys that want to blow things up, when it comes time to justify policy or proffer fear for public consumption all you really need to do is decide to go out and pick a guy up, or for that matter let him get close for the sake of an investigation, and voila, "THREAT CODE ORANGE!!!!" I have worked for a Federal contractor for many years, and with the Feds, generally the simplest explanation is the most accurate, even though at times they are so arcane and disorganized it seems like intentional obfuscation.

 

[Bumblebee]

I can't buy into the argument that the media would aid the government in a cover up ... well except maybe Fox.

I can buy into the fact that anything that doesn't help sell or help make money for the multi-mational multi-faceted companies that own media outlets have an interest in merely manipulating the masses to move money into the areas they want...

 

[Cazadores]

I dont think anybody is arguing that there aren't. Qutch is suggesting that our own government uses those less-than-bright terrorists for their own gain. I dont think that's any less far fetched.

I think he is suggesting they are being more or less sponsored, as in given visas, bombs and airplane tickets. A little more than just passively cultivating bad guys with challenged I.Q.s and busting them when needed.

 

[Gonzo]

Qutch,

Could the man in the tan suit be working for a terrorist group just as easily as working for the US?

 

[inigo88]

bigwavedave

I was wondering where you went!

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Which story? There are several floating around in what I posted so far. I'd be interested in hearing more on your viewpoint. By "this story", Do you mean the CIA conspiracy to create a scare story that passenger Kurt Haskell theorizes?

Occam's Razor - You are saying that the simpler and more likely explanation = "Al Quida conspiracy to kill" ?
.

The whole shenanigan you posted, about it being something other than what was reported. I'm sorry, but the simplest and more likely explanation is exactly what was reported.

 

[Qutch]

I think he [Qutch] is suggesting they are being more or less sponsored, as in given visas, bombs and airplane tickets. A little more than just passively cultivating bad guys with challenged I.Q.s and busting them when needed.

All of the above Cazadores, and more. These guys are as good at their jobs (sometimes at least) as you are at yours. They play a game of multi-dimensional chess. Deception is their game. They train for it, like you train for your job. They have more than one tool in their tool bag. Spectacular screw ups sometimes? Apparently so. I think they may have gotten careless on the Flight 253 Operation and permitted the wrong passenger (Haskell - a former Gov't lawyer) to witness what they were doing. But I never write-off the potential and lethal competency of some small, tight knit unit, to pull off an effective Op, leaving little trace behind.

I'm inclined to believe that the Feds have an inventory of these knuckleheads lined up and ready to be rolled out when they need a DH$ funding photo op, on cue. Christmas seems to be a popular time of year. The Congress and public are easily controlled with the application of a little fear.
.
Terrorist Plots, Hatched by the F.B.I. - NY Times

"But all these dramas were facilitated by the F.B.I., whose undercover agents and informers posed as terrorists offering a dummy missile, fake C-4 explosives, a disarmed suicide vest and rudimentary training. Suspects naïvely played their parts until they were arrested."
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/opinion/sunday/terrorist-plots-helped-along-by-the-fbi.html?_r=1

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Clarification Note: I'm not suggesting that these suspects are innocent angels. I'm just suggesting that most were harmless incompetents with big mouths....... but no money, skills or the required ambition until undercover Feds showed up with lots of cash and promises of glory. What the Feds are doing is great marketing for their budgets, and I think we should not be too naive about that when it comes to this DHS/TSA Theater. Sure, these wanna-be-terrorists should go to jail. But I'm not impressed with the types of people they are arresting in these sting operations. I'm just wondering if we should be racing to give up all our civil liberties just because the Feds have demonstrated that they can work these patsies into dramatic Arrest Photo Ops.
.

 

[Qutch]

The whole shenanigan you posted, about it being something other than what was reported. I'm sorry, but the simplest and more likely explanation is exactly what was reported.

Alright. That's fair. So you think Haskell's theory that the Fed intentionally let him on the plane for some reason, is wrong. It was just a system screw-up like the Gov't claims, and Haskell is reading way too much into this.

I think I understand you now. Do others here agree with KSCessnaDriver? Am I being led astray by Haskell's wild imagination and conspiracy theory? I admit it. I believe the guy when he says the US Gov't secretly arranged to get the Nigerian kid around Dutch Security and onto Flight 253, and then they lied about doing it.

(maybe I've been reading too many declassified documents for my own good)
.

 

[Gonzo]

Alright. That's fair. So you think Haskell's theory that the Fed intentionally let him on the plane for some reason, is wrong. It was just a system screw-up like the Gov't claims, and Haskell is reading way too much into this.

I don't think there is evidence to prove him right or wrong. To many unknowns, like I said maybe the guy in the tan suit works for the US and this was a false flag or maybe he works for a terrorist group and it happened about in line with the story we are being told.

(maybe I've been reading too many declassified documents for my own good)
.

What declassified documents are you talking about?

FYI: Haskell is a tax attorney who worked for the IRS.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Alright. That's fair. So you think Haskell's theory that the Fed intentionally let him on the plane for some reason, is wrong. It was just a system screw-up like the Gov't claims, and Haskell is reading way too much into this.

I think I understand you now. Do others here agree with KSCessnaDriver? Am I being led astray by Haskell's wild imagination and conspiracy theory? I admit it. I believe the guy when he says the US Gov't secretly arranged to get the Nigerian kid around Dutch Security and onto Flight 253, and then they lied about doing it.

Quite frankly, I just don't give a damn. There are only so many things one can worry about in one's life. Personally, I like to deal with/worry about things that either directly impact me or things that I can control personally. Beyond that, I don't care.

 

[inigo88]

Interesting article got kicked my way a few days ago:

The Case of the Missing Terrorists

by Paul Craig Roberts May 14, 2012 |

If there were any real terrorists, Jose Rodriguez would be dead.

Who is Jose Rodriguez? He is the criminal who ran the CIA torture program. Most of his victims were not terrorists or even insurgents. Most were hapless individuals kidnapped by warlords and sold to the Americans as “terrorists” for the bounty paid.

If Rodriguez’s identity was previously a secret, it is no more. He has been on CBS “60 Minutes” taking credit for torturing Muslims and using the information allegedly gained to kill leaders of al Qaeda. If terrorists were really the problem that Homeland Security, the FBI and CIA claim, Rodriguez’s name would be a struck through item on the terrorists’ hit list. He would be in his grave.
So, also, would be John Yoo, who wrote the Justice (sic) Department memos giving the green light to torture, despite US and International laws prohibiting torture. Apparently, Yoo, a professor at the Boalt School of Law at the University of California, Berkeley, was ignorant of US and international law. And so was the US Department of Justice (sic).

Notice that Rodriguez, “The Torturer of the Muslims,” doesn’t have to hide. He can go on national television, reveal his identity, and revel in his success in torturing and murdering Muslims. Rodriguez has no Secret Service protection and would be an easy mark for assassination by terrorists so capable as to have, allegedly, pulled off 9/11.

Another easy mark for assassination would be former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, who staffed up the Pentagon with neoconservative warmongers such as Paul Wolfowitz and Douglas Feith, who in turn concocted the false information used to justify the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. Rumsfeld himself declared members of al Qaeda to be the most vicious and dangerous killers on earth. Yet Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Feith, Richard Perle, together with neoconservative media propagandists, such as William Kristol and Max Boot, have been walking around safe for years unmolested by terrorists seeking revenge or bringing retribution to those responsible for as many as 1,000,000 Muslim deaths.

Condi Rice, Colin Powell, who delivered the Speech of Lies to the UN inaugurating the invasion of Iraq, and Dick Cheney, whose minimal Secret Service protection could not withstand a determined assassination attempt, also enjoy lives unmolested by terrorists.
Remember the deck of cards that the Bush regime had with Iraqi faces? If terrorists had a similar deck, all of those named above would be “high value targets.” Yet, there has not been a single attempt on any one of them.

Strange, isn’t it, that none of the above are faced with a terrorist threat. Yet, the tough, macho Navy Seals who allegedly killed Osama bin Laden must have their identity kept hidden so that they don’t become terrorist targets. These American supermen, highly trained killers themselves, don’t dare show their faces, but Rodriguez, Rumsfeld, and Condi Rice can walk around unmolested. Indeed, the Seals’ lives are so endangered that President Obama gave up the enormous public relations political benefit of a White House ceremony with the heroic Navy Seals. Very strange behavior for a politician. A couple of weeks after the alleged bin Laden killing, the Seals unit, or most of it, was wiped out in a helicopter crash in Afghanistan.

If you were a Muslim terrorist seeking retribution for Washington’s crimes, would you try to smuggle aboard an airliner a bomb in your underwear or shoe in order to blow up people whose only responsibility for Washington’s war against Muslims is that they fell for Washington’s propaganda? If you wanted to blow up the innocent, wouldn’t you instead place your bomb in the middle of the mass of humanity waiting to clear airport security and take out TSA personnel along with passengers? Terrorists could coordinate their attacks, hitting a number of large airports across the US at the same minute. This would be real terror. Moreover, it would present TSA with an insolvable problem: how can people be screened before they are screened?

Or coordinated attacks on shopping malls and sports events?

Why should terrorists, if they exist, bother to kill people when it is easy to cause mayhem by not killing them? There are a large number of unguarded electric power substations. Entire regions of the country could be shut down. The simplest disruptive act would be to release large quantities of roofing nails in the midst of rush hour traffic in Boston, New York, Washington DC, Atlanta, Dallas, Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco. You get the picture: thousands and thousands of cars disabled with flat tires blocking the main arteries for days.

Before some reader accuses me of giving terrorists ideas, ask yourself if you really think people so clever as to have allegedly planned and carried out 9/11 couldn’t think of such simple tactics, plots that could be carried out without having to defeat security or kill innocent people? My point isn’t what terrorists, if they exist, should do. The point is that the absence of easy-to-do acts of terrorism suggests that the terrorist threat is more hype than reality. Yet, we have an expensive, intrusive security apparatus that seems to have no real function except to exercise power over American citizens.

In place of real terrorists carrying out easy plots, we have “terrorist” plots dreamed up by FBI and CIA agents, who then recruit some hapless or demented dupes, bribing them with money and heroic images of themselves, and supplying them with the plot and fake explosives. These are called “sting operations,” but they are not. They are orchestrations by our own security agencies that produce fake terrorist plots that are then “foiled” by the security agencies that hatched the plots. Washington’s announcement is always: “The public was never in danger.” Some terrorist plot! We have never been endangered by one, but the airports have been on orange alert for 11.5 years.

The federal judiciary and brainwashed juries actually treat these concocted plots as real threats to American security despite the government’s announcements that the public was never in danger.
The announcements of the “foiled” plots keep the brainwashed public docile and amenable to intrusive searches, warrantless spying, the growth of an unaccountable police state, and endless wars.

The “War on Terror” is a hoax, one that has been successfully used to destroy the US Constitution and to complete the transformation of law from a shield of the people into a weapon in the hands of the state. By destroying habeas corpus, due process, and the presumption of innocence, the “War on Terror” has destroyed our security.

About Dr. Paul Craig Roberts

Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy and associate editor of the Wall Street Journal. He was columnist for Business Week, Scripps Howard News Service, and Creators Syndicate. He has had many university appointments. His internet columns have attracted a worldwide following.

I didn't know much about Roberts, so I looked him up. He was Ronald Reagan's Assistant Treasury Secretary. He co-founded Reaganomics.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

Quite frankly, I just don't give a damn. There are only so many things one can worry about in one's life. Personally, I like to deal with/worry about things that either directly impact me or things that I can control personally. Beyond that, I don't care.

But this does affect us. Profoundly. It affects us all when we use an airport and in the planned future public places like sports stadiums.

 

[Qutch]

I had some questions, Qutch, about your point of view concerning the basic problems I have with the idea DOJ, DHS, State, CIA, and foreign agencies, like the Dutch, with all their varying competencies and members, 1) being able to cooperate and keep its members quiet. I am not being argumentative, you know I agree, for example, with the idea of the FBI setting up that kid in Portland, and for that matter the belief various groups, like AQAP, are being cultivated for the occasional opportunistic demonstration for policy gain, but 2) Northwoods was stopped, and the wheels fell off because Kennedy fired the Bay of Pigs "master minds" and therefore 2) never got beyond a simple idea on paper. Had it, do you think at some point someone, somewhere might slip up, might blow the whistle? When you start flying airplanes, you need crews, ATC, fuelers....you think the USAF might have some Officers who would take exception to sending a couple of Century series fighters from Eglin to "shoot down" a passenger jet in order to start a war? How many people might wonder about an F-86 being modified to look like a MiG and flying to Cuba on a daily basis? Drone boats blowing up? Anyone at any point going to say "Oh yeah, no one on the boat when the SAR arrived on scene, no bodies, nothing..." Now we have 1) an operation requiring the cooperation of CiA, State, DOJ, and the Dutch authorities, and at no point someone, anywhere, in these huge, dynamic, often competing agencies, is saying anything, even just some pillow talk to the wrong prostitute?

See to me it doesn't take a real conspiracy, we know there are bad guys that want to blow things up, when it comes time to justify policy or proffer fear for public consumption all you really need to do is decide to go out and pick a guy up, or for that matter let him get close for the sake of an investigation, and voila, "THREAT CODE ORANGE!!!!" I have worked for a Federal contractor for many years, and with the Feds, generally the simplest explanation is the most accurate, even though 1) at times they are so arcane and disorganized it seems like intentional obfuscation.

As usual, I agree in the largest part with what you are saying. And the part we don't completely agree on, I can still see where you are coming from and respect your view. You may be correct, I could be wrong. I think the difference may come from our own personal experiences.

Issue #1 - Interagency Cooperation - I went thru a stage where I had doubts about the same things you do. But the more exposure I had to various military and civilian organizations, the more Ops ('confidential' but not 'classified secret' for the most part) I took part in myself, and the more declassified reports I read, the more I began to understand how the required cooperation can take place between (some) competent units and organizations. Next, I read and personally experienced situations where the Op was screwed up, and people talked, but the event never got the type of publicity (for various reasons) for it to reach mass public consciousness. Finally, lots of people will, in the final analysis, admit that they "just don't give a damn" anyway. They feel that since they can't change it, they don't even want to know about it. So in summary - Some Ops do go right, but when they don't, the people that run them can often squash or confuse the story. And when whistle-blowers do scream, often no one listens, no one even cares. Lot's of examples - subject for another thread perhaps.

Issue #2 - Operation Northwoods cancelled ?- That's a subject I would like to debate some time, but it is too large a subject for this thread. Needs it's own thread for me to present the evidence. PM a little of it to you later. I would argue that Northwoods did go forward, in secret, under other Code Names.
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