Iranian fighter planes (huh?)

[Qutch]

The Iranian Tomcat fleet tore apart the Iraqi Air Force during the 8 year war. I know people often doubt Tom Cooper's research but until somebody else does a study, his is it. If his research is accurate, Iranian F-14's scored around 120-130 kills in the war (possible as low as 80 and high as 155), losing 3 to 6 of their own in air combat. He has been able to confirm 3 Tomcats shot down, I believe all by Mirage F1's, another damaged by a Mig-23 (pics of the damaged Tomcat are in one of his books), and another 3 lost in unknown circumstances. One of which was an air to air engagement but it's thought the Tomcat departed flight and crashed. Remember, regardless of ability, the Tomcat drivers were trained in the US and were able to gain combat experience throughout the war.

Yes. They did start out well against the comparitively even more incompetent, and lesser equiped Iraqis. And then the Purges.....and it went down hill.... until the Iranian AF was playing a lesser and lesser role in that war. (see above documents)

Iranian pilots started defecting in their aircraft across various borders into neighboring countries, telling stories of purges and executions.

At least, that's what came through in our reports, and what Iranian defectors told me later. Chaos reigned.

edit: Of course, I was just talking to the pissed off ones. Maybe they had happy pilots I didn't get to interview.
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[bunk22]

Yes. They did start out well against the comparitively even more incompetent, and lesser equiped Iraqis. And then the Purges.....and it went down hill.... until the Iranian AF was playing a lesser and lesser role in that war. (see above documents)

Iranian pilots started defecting in their aircraft across various borders into neighboring countries, telling stories of purges and executions.

At least, that's what came through in our reports, and what Iranian defectors told me later. Chaos reigned.

edit: Of course, I was just talking to the pissed off ones. Maybe they had happy pilots I didn't get to interview.
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No, they kept fighting right up until the end of the war, flying Tomcats, Phantoms, F-5's against Mig-21,23, 25, Mirage F1, SU-17/22, etc. The final air combat of that war occurred on 19 July 1988 and saw two Tomcat's shot down by Mirage F1 EQ's armed with Super 530D missiles. Granted, the Tomcat fleet was spread thin and the IIAF had problems keeping them airborne in number as the war continued on. Cooper claims 19 confirmed kills and 2 probable kills were claimed by Tomcats from Jan-July 1988.

 

[///AMG]

Yeah I had read about the purges, and I know the IIAF detractor's argument will point that out, but I'm a little hesitant to write it all off so quickly. We (USN) completely walked away, at least officially, from WVR A/A training in the early 1960's, and a whole generation of pilots lost that skill set. Yet after the Ault report, and the formation of Topgun, somehow those old skills were pulled from the minds of some of the sharper JO's who had continued to train to BFM/SEM in spite of official NAVAIR policy. All of a sudden, we gained that knowledge base back, after many years of not even thinking about it. Would the same thing happen in Iran? Has it already? I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me if I found out that it had.

 

[Qutch]

No, they kept fighting right up until the end of the war, flying Tomcats, Phantoms, F-5's against Mig-21,23, 25, Mirage F1, SU-17/22, etc. The final air combat of that war occurred on 19 July 1988 and saw two Tomcat's shot down by Mirage F1 EQ's armed with Super 530D missiles. Granted, the Tomcat fleet was spread thin and the IIAF had problems keeping them airborne in number as the war continued on. Cooper claims 19 confirmed kills and 2 probable kills were claimed by Tomcats from Jan-July 1988.

I know you're well versed in this history, so I'll defer to you on the timing and when the purges had their greatest impact. I've also never read Cooper's book. The defectors I was dealing with told me their side, and I have the reports above, but I wasn't in Iran. So that's all I know. I just thought this history might be interesting for those who hadn't had a chance to hear the story of the Ayatollahs, and the personal danger that these American and Israeli trained pilots suddenly faced from within. I just can't imagine living in an Air Force in which colleagues might have been hauled out and fired, executed or imprisoned over a perceived lack of loyalty to a new religious authority. I'm guessing the IIAF must have lost a step or two during the ordeals they went through. Thanks for letting me tell the story.

One piece of triva: This paper from the Naval Post Graduate School tells a portion of the story I heard from defectors, crediting (or blaming, according to the IIAF pilots I spoke to) the IIAF aircraft technicians' revolt with being the deciding factor in tipping the entire military against the Shah, and over to the Ayatollahs. This is the bloody Farahabad AFB incident I mentioned above, triggered by the revolt of the Homafaran (IIAF mechanics, many trained in the US). - see page 30-34 if you're interested. Just another IIAF upheaval story. Couldn't have been comforting when the mechanics maintaining their aircraft turned on them and revolted.

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA276580
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[Blackhawk]

Not totally off subject, but somewhat.
One of my more unusual assignments was about 20 years ago when I was assigned to the UN Peackeeping mission in the Western Sahara. This was when US personnel being assigned to such assignments was rare. The first formal I went to upon my return all the officers had never seen a UN medal. The information is old, and in many cases I only had a brief view of the officer corps of other nations based upon only one person, but it gave some interesting insites and was a strange assignment. We had an Argentine Pucara pilot who was shot down in the Falkland War serving on the staff of a British SAS COL who commanded the Para unit that shot him down. My senior boss was a CHICOM COL; my immediate boss was a Russian Navy LTC who spoke five languages (the other Russians said he was Navy like they were cosmonauts). We even had some former East German VOPOS who served as gendarmes (we could not carry weapons, but had military police and gendarmes who could be armed if necessary). It is where I developed my un-PC rules- 1. Don't let a CHICOM drive 2. Don't let a Nigerian handle money 3. Don't drink with the Russians.
We did not have Iranians or Iraqis, but we did have officers from Pakistan, Algeria, Egypt, Syria... many African countries... some South/Central Americans... NATO... you name it.
My general observations are limited to ground officers. I did get to fly some with the Russians in their MI-17s (their rules are a little more lax than ours), but otherwise was in a ground roll. Aside from 12 hours bottle to throttle having a different meaning for them they were quite good on the stick, though perhaps a little lax with their rules and their defference to the PIC. Let's just say I am not surprised at the high accident rate in Russia right now.
The Middle East/African officers were incompetent and were never put in any real leadership positions or in any of the important staff positions (G-2/3). Often they were put in charge of money- see my rule number 3 above. "Misplacing" money was common and nothing happened to those officers who "lost" the money.
The one exception was the Morocan officers I encountered. As a G-2 I had regular meetings with them. They were very competent and are one of the few contries to wage a successful counter insurgency. The Mauritanians lost there (okay, no surprise); Algerians had thrown in the towel. Even the French and Spanish did not have much success with the Bedouins. But the Morocans succeeded. Really not much literature out there on their tactics and the war itself. I remember my last lunch with one brigade commander. He ushered out the translator (he always spoke to me in French), and started speaking in perfect American english. That sly fox. It turned out all his kids lived in the US and he asked me to hand carry a letter to his daughter, a dentist on Long Island.
Russians were actually pretty competent, though different. We had a bunch of Afghan vets and their attitude about following orders was up there with the Waffen SS. Some were still a little disturbed by there actions there... though some were not.
I found the CHICOMs to be a surprise. Put them in a group and it was what you woud expect. Talk to them on an indivudual basis and they were very much like us. Missed their families. Individually they were upset at their government's reaction to Tiananmen Square- but get them in a group and they sang the party line. Always had pictures they wanted to show us of their families. Of course there was the sly side as well... such as the infantry officer who knew quite a bit about the units I was stationed with in Korea. It was obvious they were told to find out certain information about us, but also obvious that they felt uncomfortable doing so. I even had one major pull me aside once and ask if I could get him a bible. Never really talked to him about religion before. He was also a funny story. Countries were limited at the officers they could send at certain ranks, especially LTC and above. I went to his "cubicle/room" once and saw a picture of him with his wife (also an officer). I noticed in the picture he was wearing LTC rank and pointed this out. He was mortified and begged me not to tell the others. He was also an "infantry" officer, but he taught order of battle at their war college.
So I guess I agree with the general assumptions about the Iranians. Also the officer corps in the Middle East seems to have a tough time learning lessons from the past. Look at the IAF success against the other air forces in the region. Just a bunch of meandering observations.

 

[bunk22]

I know you're well versed in this history, so I'll defer to you on the timing and when the purges had their greatest impact. I've also never read Cooper's book. The defectors I was dealing with told me their side, and I have the reports above, but I wasn't in Iran. So that's all I know. I just thought this history might be interesting for those who hadn't had a chance to hear the story of the Ayatollahs, and the personal danger that these American and Israeli trained pilots suddenly faced from within. I just can't imagine living in an Air Force in which colleagues might have been hauled out and fired, executed or imprisoned over a perceived lack of loyalty to a new religious authority. I'm guessing the IIAF must have lost a step or two during the ordeals they went through. Thanks for letting me tell the story.

One piece of triva: This paper from the Naval Post Graduate School tells a portion of the story I heard from defectors, crediting (or blaming, according to the IIAF pilots I spoke to) the IIAF aircraft technicians' revolt with being the deciding factor in tipping the entire military against the Shah, and over to the Ayatollahs. This is the bloody Farahabad AFB incident I mentioned above, triggered by the revolt of the Homafaran (IIAF mechanics, many trained in the US). - see page 30-34 if you're interested. Just another IIAF upheaval story. Couldn't have been comforting when the mechanics maintaining their aircraft turned on them and revolted.

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA276580
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I wasn't disagreeing necessarily, combat tapered off as you said due to attrition, mnx issues, etc and took a toll on the IIAF. They were able to keep fighitng but at a reduced rate and ability. The Tomcat and the pilots really save that nation in a lot of respects. Mainly it kept the IrAF at bay, unable to completely overwhelm the IIAF with their larger F-4/F-5 force.

 

[Boris Badenov]

3. Don't drink with the Russians.

Great stuff, keep it coming.

And Rule #3 I can personally verify as being astute. That was ten years ago and my head still hurts.

 

[Qutch]

I wasn't disagreeing necessarily, combat tapered off as you said due to attrition, mnx issues, etc and took a toll on the IIAF. They were able to keep fighitng but at a reduced rate and ability. The Tomcat and the pilots really save that nation in a lot of respects. Mainly it kept the IrAF at bay, unable to completely overwhelm the IIAF with their larger F-4/F-5 force.

Thanks. That's about how our reports and the defectors I spoke to described it. The IIAF ability and hardware was superior as you say, but spare parts sanctions and harrassment purges from the Ayatollahs made indefinate Iranian air superiority (I'm talking sortie numbers only, not Tomcat effectiveness. I should have clarifed that earlier) unsustainable over the long run. Add to that, the US was assisting Iraq with intelligence, weapons, and political cover for the war Iraq had started. As I heard the story from defectors, as Iranian sorties dropped off, Iraqi sorties increased. Then, according to declassified documents, the US and Israel covertly began working with the Iranians behind the back of Iraq. . Iran-Contra (spare parts for aircraft, and other banned weapons) leaked Iraqi intel, etc., to maintain the regional balance of power. Playing the 2 off against each other. Keeping both sides worn down. Correct me if I'm wrong.


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More on this please Blackhawk. The only thing I know about Afghans are the famous callisthenics videos shot by US soldiers, demonstrating their inability to follow orders and work as a team. And what were they disturbed by? I don't want to make assumptions. Sounded interesting though.

.......We had a bunch of Afghan vets and their attitude about following orders was up there with the Waffen SS. Some were still a little disturbed by there actions there... though some were not.......

 

[Blackhawk]

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More on this please Blackhawk. The only thing I know about Afghans are the famous callisthenics videos shot by US soldiers, demonstrating their inability to follow orders and work as a team. And what were they disturbed by? I don't want to make assumptions. Sounded interesting though.

Sorry- I was not really clear. When I wrote Afghan vets I meant Russians who had served in Afghanistan. At my site we had two- one infantry one armor. My boss (the Russian "Navy" LTC), had not served there, but had served in Angola and I think Mozambique. Funny, he had never been on a ship. He did have a funny story about a flight of Angolan Migs being sent out by themselves for the first time. They got lost and had to punch out.

Frankly, from my experience there the country that scares me the most is China. Not because they own a bunch of our debt. I think that may be a good thing and I heared the same complaints about China that I heard about Japan in the 70s. My concern is their "groupthink" mentality when they are together. I remember talking to a Chinese infantry officer about Tienanmen Square. He was upset that the leadership sent infantry brigades into the square- they should have known what peasant infantrymen would do. I asked him if anyone voiced this concern before they were sent in and the question puzzled him. Subordinates do not voice there concerns about such matters. So I can see someone within the Chinese leadership at some point saying it would be a good idea to go to war with the US and none of the subordinates voicing their concerns about how it would be a war where even the winner would be a loser and somehow we stumble into such a conflict with everyone on both sides just shaking their heads.

 

[Qutch]

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....... My boss (the Russian "Navy" LTC), had not served there, but had served in Angola and I think Mozambique. Funny, he had never been on a ship. He did have a funny story about a flight of Angolan Migs being sent out by themselves for the first time. They got lost and had to punch out.

Seen it. I can confirm your Russian boss' take. The Ethiopians were so unsuited to the job that I never really counted our Ethiopian AF students as real "students". They were just there taking up space. First, their country kept drifting back and forth between the Soviet camp and the US Camp. One minute we were giving them aid, the next minute we were cutting them off. Then one day the US State Department dropped them off on our doorstep and we were told to train them. It was clear to us that the students weren't qualified to go on a scenic flight in a Cessna 172. Jet training was out of the question. My first student spoke almost no English, had tribal scar marks on his cheeks, responded to all my questions with a high pitched "woot?" (what?), and seemed genuinely scared of the aircraft. I asked him what he would be assigned to fly by the Ethiopian Gov, through broken English he answered "Soviet Migs." I was told that the Ethiopian candidate selection process involved picking the sons of tribal chieftains, in some type loyalty barter system between the tribes and the Ethiopian government. All I could do was pencil whip some fake grades for them and push them through the system. I can recall no horror stories to tell about them because, unlike the Iranians they arrived broke, were well behaved, and we avoided letting them take-off, land, or solo as I recall. But I suspected the horror stories would occur when they were sent home to fly on their own. Iranian AF and others from that region are truly funny pilots to observe, but somehow I never found anything to chuckle about with the Africans. Your Angolan story sounds about right to me.

Frankly, from my experience there the country that scares me the most is China. Not because they own a bunch of our debt. I think that may be a good thing and I heared the same complaints about China that I heard about Japan in the 70s. My concern is their "groupthink" mentality when they are together. I remember talking to a Chinese infantry officer about Tienanmen Square. He was upset that the leadership sent infantry brigades into the square- they should have known what peasant infantrymen would do. I asked him if anyone voiced this concern before they were sent in and the question puzzled him. Subordinates do not voice there concerns about such matters. So I can see someone within the Chinese leadership at some point saying it would be a good idea to go to war with the US and none of the subordinates voicing their concerns about how it would be a war where even the winner would be a loser and somehow we stumble into such a conflict with everyone on both sides just shaking their heads.

I have some recent experience studying CHICOMs. Very disciplined, academics are tops. They memorize everything perfectly. OK in the aircraft as long as everything is canned. The odd thing we notice is that in the aircraft, when faced with an un-canned, unscripted situation, they don't quite know what to do. The word "improvise" isn't in their vocabulary. They are puzzled when faced with a situation that hasn't been prescripted for them. They want someone to tell them what to do. I imagine we're talking about the same underlying trait.

...... war where even the winner would be a loser and somehow we stumble into such a conflict with everyone on both sides just shaking their heads.

You mean like Viet Nam, Afghanistan, Iraq and our next venture......Iran?
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[Blackhawk]

[quote





I have some recent experience studying CHICOMs. Very disciplined, academics are tops. They memorize everything perfectly. OK in the aircraft as long as everything is canned. The odd thing we notice is that in the aircraft, when faced with an un-canned, unscripted situation, they don't quite know what to do. The word "improvise" isn't in their vocabulary. They are puzzled when faced with a situation that hasn't been prescripted for them. They want someone to tell them what to do. I imagine we're talking about the same underlying trait.




You mean like Viet Nam, Afghanistan, Iraq and our next venture......Iran?
.[/quote]
At least here there was some discussion about if, how to execute... though maybe not always thought through well. I'm still amazed that no one on a G staff thought about the Iranians while we occupied Iraq. Seriously??? No plan to seal that border or the one with Syria???
I'm sure you have been in mission briefs where questions are asked or doubts are raised. Don't see that happening with CHICOMs. I do think a war with them would be a disaster on a scale that would make other wars in our life time pale in comparison and would cost many more sons and daughters on both sides.

 

[Boris Badenov]

my immediate boss was a Russian Navy LTC who spoke five languages (the other Russians said he was Navy like they were cosmonauts).

Fencer is going to be pissed that you didn't recognize him. We'll just call him Yuri Gagarin from here on out, k?

 

[MikeD]

Then, according to declassified documents, the US and Israel covertly began working with the Iranians behind the back of Iraq. . Iran-Contra (spare parts for aircraft, and other banned weapons) leaked Iraqi intel, etc., to maintain the regional balance of power. Playing the 2 off against each other. Keeping both sides worn down. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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I've talked about this before on here, regarding how the US was having Israel sell F-4 parts to Iran, while the US was selling HAWK SAM systems and TOW missiles to Iran, in exchange for Iran funneling money to the Contras, which the US Congress had forbade the Reagan adminstration to do. So even with all the public "tough guy" talk from Israel against Iran, and Iran against Israel; the truth is, they both talk to each other and both need each other, politically speaking.

 

[Blackhawk]

Just to clarify something Qutch, myself and others are saying. We are not talking about a race thing, but a culture thing. I saw this dramatized in my Sahara assignment. The guy I replaced was a black American Army major. This guy had an amazing system. In a day when GPS units were just coming out and much of the area we patrolled was marked "unsurveyed" on maps he had an amazing intelligence system that included hand made maps of the mine fields in our area. This guy was so good that his system made me look like a genious and turned around my career. Then we had the Nigerian LTC who "lost" $40,000 of UN funds and "misplaced" Landcruiser. Misplaced as in never seen again but most likely sold by him on the black market somewhere. It was not even reported missing until the senior mission officer noticed he did not have it any more. Nothing ever happened to that guy.

 

[Qutch]

Just to clarify something Qutch, myself and others are saying. We are not talking about a race thing, but a culture thing. ..........

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Just before Gulf War One, to free Kuwait, we were all listening to Saddam Hussein bluster and threaten "the mother of all battles." The TV was full of talking heads, most predicting a tough fight, and how as a US ally Saddam knew our tactics, and some nonsense about a giant Iraqi cannon and a tough air force, blah, blah, blah. Recalling my experiences with that culture and all the similar military intelligence reports I'd read, I thought this "news" coverage was all pretty funny. However, I could see that people here were really very worried. It was all anyone wanted to talk about, and I was pretty sure that I knew what was actually about to happen....a battlefield turkey shoot. That was the first time I made the mistake of trying to explain this middle-east Muslim/Arab culture incompetence trait, to a mixed group, at a seminar I was attending. A couple of shocked people denounced me as being a "racist." It had not occurred to me before that people couldn't wrap their head around this idea of culturally induced technical and organizational incompetence.

Ever since then I always yell "bunk!!!!!! Get in here!!! They're never going to believe this."


Here a Muslim cleric explains part of the cause.........Oil Wealth.


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[Qutch]

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.......The one exception was the Morocan officers I encountered. As a G-2 I had regular meetings with them. They were very competent and are one of the few contries to wage a successful counter insurgency. The Mauritanians lost there (okay, no surprise); Algerians had thrown in the towel. Even the French and Spanish did not have much success with the Bedouins. But the Morocans succeeded. Really not much literature out there on their tactics and the war itself.......

Another fun-factoid odd custom of the region, the Bedouin tribes, and the Koran's 3 day mandatory period of gracious hospitality before they kill you. I hope that factoid is in our aviator survival kits in case they have to bail. You have 3 days.

Breaking News today:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/02/04/freed-us-tourist-says-egyptian-kidnappers-were-very-nice/ ("...treated like family...")

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/03/10312929-freed-american-egyptian-kidnappers-were-very-nice?gt1=43001

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I've talked about this before on here, regarding how the US was having Israel sell F-4 parts to Iran, while the US was selling HAWK SAM systems and TOW missiles to Iran, in exchange for Iran funneling money to the Contras, which the US Congress had forbade the Reagan adminstration to do. So even with all the public "tough guy" talk from Israel against Iran, and Iran against Israel; the truth is, they both talk to each other and both need each other, politically speaking.

I'm glad someone here keeps reminding us of that. The ripples continue to this day. Even the obscure 2010 Pentagon shooting story, dismissed as merely the act of a deranged gunman, tracks back to Iran-Contra and the gruesome death of Marine Corp Colonel James Sabow in his El Toro quarters.

Source: CBS News: "Colonel Sabow's family has maintained that he was murdered because he was about to expose covert military operations in Central America involving drug smuggling flights."
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-6269822-504083.html

This Iranian story has tentacles that go everywhere. You just can't make this stuff up.

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[bunk22]

Why Arabs lose wars:

http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars

 

[Springer]

Why Arabs lose wars:

http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars

Good read. It collaborates a paper I read written by a US Army Major in Afghanistan who ran a recreational facility for the Afghans. Same trials and tribulations albeit on a much smaller scale.

 

[MikeD]

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Source: CBS News: "Colonel Sabow's family has maintained that he was murdered because he was about to expose covert military operations in Central America involving drug smuggling flights."
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-6269822-504083.html

This Iranian story has tentacles that go everywhere. You just can't make this stuff up.

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I'd forgotten about the death of Col Sabow, was it ever solved in any way? Weird circumstances behind it and interesting the reports he made of the aircraft flights into NZJ.

 

[Qutch]

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I'd forgotten about the death of Col Sabow, was it ever solved in any way? Weird circumstances behind it and interesting the reports he made of the aircraft flights into NZJ.

No. Not solved as far as I'm concerned. Supposedly, a Marine Colonel fighter pilot clubs himself, then puts a shotgun in his mouth and pulls the trigger, leaving his wife to find him? All on the heals of his accusations of scruffy looking civilian manned Contra C-130 drug flights being routed through his Marine base? No, I don't buy it, but I'm always inclined to give AF/Navy/MC pilots the overwhelming benefit of the doubt on anything, until they reach D.C. and Flag Rank. Sabow's medical evidence is not my area of expertise, but the military M.D.s I know who've looked at it agree with Sabow's brother (a neurologist /brain surgeon), that the medical evidence does not add up. . A Barry Seals like ending. . http://colonelsabow.com/ . These unexplained scruffy crewed, odd C-130 flights are something I spotted myself in the 80s on an ANG runway, and when I made casual inquiries, I was told to "let it go, make no further inquires." . Lot's of people must have spotted them. Unlike Sabow, I backed away from it, but I really didn't understand what I was seeing anyway. Maybe nothing. Apparently, Sabow got close enough to see what was inside the aircraft and would not let it go. Sabow related graphic videos of the murder/suicide scene are easy to find on-line. But below is one indirectly related, read-between-the-lines Bill Clinton clip that you might not have seen yet Mike.

Veteran White House reporter Sarah McClendon asked President Clinton about the Iran-Contra/Oliver North connected drug flights into the US, and his role in them as former Arkansas Governor. Interesting response for a sitting President. Not the flat denial or obfuscation you might expect. No poking fun at the reporter as a crazy "conspiracy theorist." . Just this from Clinton: "They didn't tell me anything about it....That was under federal jurisdiction, we had nothing-zero to do with it." .

(First 80 seconds only)


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http://videos.howstuffworks.com/dis...cret-warriors-contras-and-narcotics-video.htm . Senator Kerry



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