Effect of Phil Trenery Still Being Felt

[WalterSobchak]

I'm obliged to listen to the union as well, make the decision for myself. However, everything I hear from the union is that there is hope to avoid bankruptcy.

I have to ask though, wouldn't we be a lot stronger airline if we were able to renegotiate our leases on the 50 seaters or even drop a few of them?

Absolutely NOT! We currently have the newest 50 seat leases and the longest current contracts with Delta. This is fee for departure flying. Why give any potential long term revenue away? Over the next 5 years almost the entire Skywest Holdings are coming up on more than 300, 50 seaters. Those most likely won't be renewed. We will still have our current contracts if the compnay doesn't give anything away. Nothing in doing that will make us stronger. Delta reimburses 9E for trianing, that fact is getting lost. I don't know about the United side. I hope they can agree to get through the training more efficiently and redo the 11-9 award, but they company negotiated contracts in bad faith if they are coming to us 10 months after implementation for concessions. Having all this training at Flight Safety as opposed to taking advantage of the Mesaba sims that sit empty are rediculous.

I really don't give a crap what sunshine the union is trying to blow up my ass. I would rather go to bankruptcy again than give back money only to just go into bankruptcy. The management and structure of this company need to change the way they operate. They talked about fixing things and taking the best of all the companies to make it more efficient. They have literally done none of that. Pinnacle made money by screwing thier labor for so long they thought that was how you make money. Now the pilots have a better contract that prohibits a lot of that and they want us to change back so they can continue to waste money. Labor is a fixed cost just like gas, oil, and engines. I'm pretty sure they aren't going to Exxon and asking for 5% off. Exxon's response will be the same as mine, FU pay me. Ask every airline that gave back money and then went in to bankruptcy how the concessionary DP was.

 

[sherpa]

Remember, the company (and sadly, the union in some circumstances) will want to sell you comfort with pay cuts.

If the company is going to go bankrupt, pay cuts will not affect it. We had 'steep and necessary pay cuts' to avoid bankruptcy and went bankrupt anyway. Then they cut them again.

Proactive engagement is a fools game.

exactly. I do NOT trust management nor do I believe this situation isn't engineered by someone.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Why isn't the line Mesaba guy incensed that the pay rates from the concessionary contract you guys had last time haven't been fixed? Why aren't we at or above the pay rates that the Mesaba MEC got way back when?

Well with the snapbacks we are above. In fact that 120hour a pay for top tier after next round of COLA adjustments actually equals the Wisconsin payscale pre - 9/11 that Mesaba seniors always griped to me about.

Every -900 captain I've spoken to is either pissed or politely reminds anyone that will listen they didn't get anything on this new contract except the 75% dh and the true leg by leg which is slightly better than our last "almost leg by leg" guarantee. They are professional about it, but I'd definitely say resentment over this contract is high. The reserve -900 guys are still pissed there's no build up lines. The deep reserve guys are pissed they are getting knocked to the -200 and be junior to guys with DOH 6 years after them (rare case but real). They are professional about it though.

EDIT: I did not take inflation into consideration on all that.

 

[sherpa]

Does anyone know if alpa gave the same approval to ual, nwa and dal for their pay cuts before their bankruptcies?

 

[derg]

exactly. I do NOT trust management nor do I believe this situation isn't engineered by someone.

It's always engineered.

Besides, y'all vote in cuts, the people on the company side that are crying "poor" today will have no problem parking their brand new Astin Martin in front of the company hangar during the "re-emergence" party.

True story.

 

[WalterSobchak]

When is that big earth quake suppose to hit near Memphis and flatten the tallest buildings in Memphis???

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Well, you should always listen to the union guys before forming an opinion. You never know what information they may have, and like others said above, it's only logical to collect all information before making a decision.

That being said, unless I was one of the "lifers" at the top of the list, I can't imagine that I would vote in favor of a pay cut at a regional. You can't squeeze blood from a turnip. Also, in my experience over the past 10 years of industry hell, taking concessions to avoid bankruptcy never works. You always end up in bankruptcy anyway, and then they just come for the second round of concessions. Just look at AMR. They avoided it for quite a while, but bankruptcy still caught up with them anyway, and now the second round of cuts is coming. Just food for thought.

 

[surreal1221]

It's really simple.

Vote no. Hearing two of your pilots in Atlanta, well, it was pretty clear they are NOT going to give ANYTHING back. Cheers to that.

Make them forcibly take it during bankruptcy when you have the perfect framing of class warfare.

Concessions very rarely come back, if EVER in the regional world. It just doesn't happen when you are in debt to your mainline partners because your management team bid or agreed to a lower payment for services. Not much else to say.

 

[jynxyjoe]

It's really simple.

Vote no.

Make them forcibly take it during bankruptcy when you have the perfect framing of class warfare.

Hehe. Kiss off Surreal.

Supposedly Friday or Saturday we'll have something factual at our fingertips. It sounds pretty grim but honest. Menke is just revealing the train wreck for what it is, and he's going to get his parachute any way this goes.

As I see it, these are our choices in the logic puzzle in front of us as pilots:

A. We take the paycut and everyone gets to live another day. (good outcome**)
B. We take a paycut and we go into bankruptcy anyhow. (bad outcome)
C. We say no to paycut we will go into bankruptcy. (bad outcome)
-------
So we are backed into a corner with only one choice. However is that choice a true choice, or is it simply a ploy to unknowingly get us to choose B?

**Everyone saying yes right away, before we go to our "partners" (read: people we owe money), makes it harder for them to say no to us. We are ready to make a deal, and they know they will be in a hurt locker come chapter 11. They take a little haircut, just like us, and it's enough to let us limp along, and our "partners" lose less money.

After we are set, and can limp, then we need more sources of revenue. We need those new contracts to succeed. This is so complex and so many things can fail on the way, and even if we do everything "right" and our CEO is good at his word we can still fail later through no fault of our own. What a preposterously risky situation.

Is there really an option A?
Can we unite and put aside our crap and become a worthwhile airline?
Can anyone say hail mary?
This, frankly, sucks.

Logic fallacies I've seen so far:
A. We are going into bankruptcy (assuming you know the future)
B. Menke is lying, there's no problem (the numbers have been verified by 3rd party sources and the union)
C. Full pay to the last day (Chapter 11 filing will give you a paycut, sorry. Full pay to the last day implies chapter 7 filing, highly unlikely. The only full pay to the last day is you leaving before a voluntary or forced paycut)

ANY way this goes, Menke and his goons will get double bonuses. They are the only ones that aren't stakeholders, and they are driving the bus. The investors have already lost so much they just want off the ride.

 

[undsioux1]

Good friend of mine is in 900 class in MSP. TW came in for lunch one day and gave an overall scoop on the situation. He said that the company was asking for contractual relief, AS WELL AS wage cuts. Most other employee groups are negotiating pay cuts, the company is asking for more than us. Add in the LOA that was signed last year, the total amount of $$$ we hand the company will be well over 5%. I would not be surprised if ALPA is really trying to negotiate cuts of less than 5% to compensate for this.

In response to the ready - fire - aim comment...5% cuts will not keep us out of bankruptcy. As someone else already stated, you cannot squeeze much out of regional pilots as it is. I will go to the roadshows and let ALPA and the company make their case, but it will take an overwhelming amount of proof for them to convince me that my paycheck will help save this company. Otherwise why start the bankruptcy process from a lower scale than we already are?? Listen to all the mainline pilots talk about giving concessions twice. Not something I am personally willing to do.

 

[surreal1221]

Hehe. Kiss off Surreal.

You say that with love right?

ANY way this goes, Menke and his goons will get double bonuses. They are the only ones that aren't stakeholders, and they are driving the bus. The investors have already lost so much they just want off the ride.

Hmm...while I commend you for your strategic planning...this last paragraph really just wipes all of it away when it comes to really defending your self-worth.

As you stated, Menke and his "goons" (re: BA having, MBA having if they are lucky, loyal Company pawns) will make out just handsomely. Especially when they begin to filter out of the PNCL institution.

However, what will you get for your sacrifice?

Yeah, I'm not there, but these issues have significant ramifications to a number of labor groups.

Industry averages sans bankruptcy (taking concessions because you guys want to play nice with management).

Industry averages due to bankruptcy (you know, having it forced on you by a court).

In the end, these averages are fed into the economic and finance data all of our negotiators use. However, it is much harder to defend or challenge for a greater increase in wages when other pilot groups are willingly taking concessions outside of a bankruptcy proceedings. Not that I would expect our management team to really stooping down to that level - I unfortunately already know that some difficulties exist in having meaningful discussions with the other side of the table.

To summarize, while you are looking out for your own pilot group, all of us collectively are impacted.

Is your opinion shared widely within the pilot group?

 

[kellwolf]

While you may judge their actions as betrayal, and believe me I'm trying not to say the same thing under my breath, I think it wise to actually LISTEN to what they have to say before we say no.

Keep in mind, for most -900 captains and SAAB guys at this airline (simply most of our seniority list), we consider this current JCBA to be an extention of our old concessionary contract... because it was. We sold out contract improvements for scope, plain and simple and brought everyone's wages up at Colgan and Pinnacle. Careful about getting on the high horse in public around Mesaba guys, especially when a number of them have actually BEEN through a sham bankruptcy and have committed to this airline. I only mention this because it sounds like you are bringing pitchforks and torches to the DTW meeting.

You mean scope a places for guys that would have been on the street otherwise. There are a lot of Saab FOs happy we merged the list since they still have jobs. CRJ FOs at 9E....not so much happy about merging the list. I'll give you that at face value it seems like the current JCBA is an extension of the XJ contract. It's true 9E and Colgan got a lot of contract boons in that as well. After that, all the goodness for 9E stops abruptly. With wage concessions, we go right back to where we were....or worse. 5% wage cuts with higher health care costs? No thanks. Unless we're getting some QoL gains in this, I'm not into saving management from themselves. The way this company is run, we'll take the cuts and still wind up in bankruptcy. We've got guys *cough* DW *cough* that were supposed to be sent to other jobs 6 months ago that are still in their cushy office job. Why do we even have to separate corporate set ups? Or THREE if you count PCL Corp. Our training is spread all over the central US, and it's going to be a nightmare doing recurrent and new hire classes in downtown Memphis. This is just the corporate waste I'm dragging off the top of my head at 12:30 am. God forbid I actually sit down and put my mind to it when I'm a) rested and b) sober....

 

[SpiceWeasel]

I'll put this simply:

Anyone who is on the PNCL Corp pilot list who votes "yes" for a concessionary contract is a moron. Don't worry, I'll tell it to your face if you want.

FULL PAY TO THE LAST DAY, 'nuff said.

 

[jynxyjoe]

You say that with love right?

Eh, I thought I did then I read the rest of your post

Hmm...while I commend you for your strategic planning...this last paragraph really just wipes all of it away when it comes to really defending your self-worth.

I'm not sure how this effects my self worth. Are you saying my hourly worth or my mental worth?

As you stated, Menke and his "goons" (re: BA having, MBA having if they are lucky, loyal Company pawns) will make out just handsomely. Especially when they begin to filter out of the PNCL institution.

However, what will you get for your sacrifice?

I haven't heard anyone frame this positively. Basically we're gambling and there's no real benefit except me might stave off a bankruptcy and limp along.

Yeah, I'm not there, but these issues have significant ramifications to a number of labor groups.

No argument. However I don't think your company was run off the side of a cliff like ours has been.

Industry averages sans bankruptcy (taking concessions because you guys want to play nice with management).

It's not about playing nice with management, if you are saying "bargaining in good faith" then stow it. We are legally obliged to bargain in good faith, it's how you get on the NMB and bankruptcy judge's good side. I hope that doesn't offend your principals, and if it does you're just going to have to be offended.

Management bargaining in bad faith was how we got "locked-in" on the last strike release, basically we got paid to sit at home and picket because they can't legally admit to the NMB they cancelled all our flights that week because they planned on us going to strike the whole time. We had a contract (basically the one we have now which is just a few million less in worth than ASA's (gold standard anymore) hammered out in 3 or 4 days mid bankruptcy.

Industry averages due to bankruptcy (you know, having it forced on you by a court).

In the end, these averages are fed into the economic and finance data all of our negotiators use. However, it is much harder to defend or challenge for a greater increase in wages when other pilot groups are willingly taking concessions outside of a bankruptcy proceedings. Not that I would expect our management team to really stooping down to that level - I unfortunately already know that some difficulties exist in having meaningful discussions with the other side of the table.

With all those factors you list off in the framing of your argument, you ignore that both ASA and Mesaba negotiated above industry averages with lots more of that crap going on around them than what is happening today.

Also, I have a tough time believing that there is any real difference at a negotiating table for your airline arguing for higher wages when we got a 5% cut in pay voluntarily versus 20% from the bankruptcy judge. Before I dismiss your argument, I will ask the union guys asking for their honest opinion.

To summarize, while you are looking out for your own pilot group, all of us collectively are impacted.

Is your opinion shared widely within the pilot group?

Right now everyone is in burn it down mode. It's tough to stay in burn it down mode when you realize that backruptcy will probably result in our dumping 1/4 of the seniority list. Furthermore, guys will get hired other places without missing a beat, I certainly don't mind leaving Pinnacle though starting all over again at first year pay on reserve is gonna kick my butt. I'm fairly confident pilot hiring will not be stagnate 2 years from now, so I have to deal with 2 tough years... eh.

Pinnacle won't get most of it's furloughs back, plain and simple. That was VERY hard on Mesaba after our sham-ruptcy, not just for training and costs, but for the pilot group moral. The ones who "stuck it out" champion their good luck, but they do it under the guise of hiding that they didn't have the qualifications to leave Mesaba when everyone who could, and did (few exceptions). Give you an idea, it's 5 years later and I stuck it in the face of a checkairman on my last trip and it still hurt him.

A lot of our senior guys really like a lot of us junior guys, we've become a bit of a family over the years, in the end I think that will come into play. Burn it down mode feels good, but it's tougher when you realize a lot of pilots here will lose 100%, not 5 or 20.

 

[Seggy]

Ready - FIRE! - Aim

How about we at least listen to the information before making a decision. I know I'm not a fan of over-reacting to situations where I don't have all the information. Personally, I like to wait until I have all the info and THEN over-react.

As it was stated, wait until the information is out there before a decision is made. We all have to much on the line here to make rash decisions on our future. We aren't in a good position but there is a way out of it to prevent it from getting worse and we all owe it to ourselves to get as much information as possible and THEN make our decision.

 

[jtrain609]

We gave them concessions, and then they nearly ran the company into the ground trying to lean the place up in order to sell it.

We never got the money back.

It's costing me $3,000 a year in hard money right now.

Take what you can, give nothing back. I can assure you that they will do the same for you regardless of what you do.

 

[Seggy]

But the point can also be made John is that you have a job right now still making an above average wage in the industry for the type of aircraft you fly with good work rules, good insurance, and a good 401K plan? What happens if the concessions you gave weren't given?

 

[jynxyjoe]

You mean scope a places for guys that would have been on the street otherwise.

You will have to explain that more to me. I think you're ignoring the fact that Mesaba choose NOT to exert it's contract scope and made Colgan a part of us immediately when Trenary was done signing ownership for Mesaba. Although usually I go down this road of what I think you said, then you slow me down and explain, and then I say "oh no kidding, God I'm dumb, ok thanks for explaining". I think, over time, it's been shown you're a little brighter bulb than me so just spell it out for me a little. Phone call works too.

There are a lot of Saab FOs happy we merged the list since they still have jobs. CRJ FOs at 9E....not so much happy about merging the list.

Sure, I think the furloughs were in a scary place, but I think it was symbiotic, Pinnacle was grossly understaffed and our furloughs helped you guys bandaid the self induced problem, especially that accelerated class (which I thought got worked out I may be wrong).

I'll give you that at face value it seems like the current JCBA is an extension of the XJ contract. It's true 9E and Colgan got a lot of contract boons in that as well. After that, all the goodness for 9E stops abruptly. With wage concessions, we go right back to where we were....or worse. 5% wage cuts with higher health care costs? No thanks. Unless we're getting some QoL gains in this, I'm not into saving management from themselves. The way this company is run, we'll take the cuts and still wind up in bankruptcy. We've got guys *cough* DW *cough* that were supposed to be sent to other jobs 6 months ago that are still in their cushy office job. Why do we even have to separate corporate set ups? Or THREE if you count PCL Corp. Our training is spread all over the central US, and it's going to be a nightmare doing recurrent and new hire classes in downtown Memphis. This is just the corporate waste I'm dragging off the top of my head at 12:30 am. God forbid I actually sit down and put my mind to it when I'm a) rested and b) sober....

Nah honestly that is some of the best inside analysis on the thread so far. We have to remember, in all of this, that we are betting on a company run by morons. Complete and utter morons. Morons who have no stake in this company. Morons who expect us to make up for their mistakes.

Life isn't fair, and these morons will never get whats coming to them. I think we have to ignore our collective anger at them because they are going to cash out no matter which way this goes. Do we want to act as a unified pilot group? Do we want to limp along and trust in Menke? Would we rather just go to bankruptcy right now, restructure, and pray we get through this as unscathed as possible losing 1/4-1/3 of the seniority list and lower wages all the way around with a potential of "snapping back" (Mesaba style).

I've gotta see the financials first before I make any decision. And remember, he signs his name SEAN!!!

 

[undsioux1]

I've gotta see the financials first before I make any decision. And remember, he signs his name SEAN!!!

I'm starting to wonder how much information we will get. From what I understand most of the information was covered under the NDAs the union signed. I hope we are shown hard facts, and not word-of-mouth information from the company/ALPA.

 

[jynxyjoe]

I'm starting to wonder how much information we will get. From what I understand most of the information was covered under the NDAs the union signed. I hope we are shown hard facts, and not word-of-mouth information from the company/ALPA.

I think you will get your wish. Sounds like we are so boned there's no point in hiding any of it.