Effect of Phil Trenery Still Being Felt

[CAPIP1998]

Its official....ALPA will be negotiating wage cuts. Road shows as early as the 9th. Count on one NO vote from me.

Ready - FIRE! - Aim

How about we at least listen to the information before making a decision. I know I'm not a fan of over-reacting to situations where I don't have all the information. Personally, I like to wait until I have all the info and THEN over-react.

 

[sherpa]

Almost everyone I speak to is starting with NO! With how badly the company wastes money, giving up pay would only feel like personally subsidizing habitual idiocracy.

 

[sherpa]

It's like giving an alcoholic some of my beer because he's out

 

[The Juice]

Ready - FIRE! - Aim

How about we at least listen to the information before making a decision. I know I'm not a fan of over-reacting to situations where I don't have all the information. Personally, I like to wait until I have all the info and THEN over-react.

I agree. This is not about supporting "bad decisions" by management or allowing the industry to "sprial further down the sinkhole," it is about listening to all information available and then, make a decision.

Part of our jobs as pilots is to take all available information and make the best decision with that information, it may be right or wrong, but it was made with all available information.

Would anyone on here take their plane up at night with thunderstorms around and as soon as you are up in the air, turn off the WX radar and ignore ATC reports on the closing thunderstorm cells around you? Of course not. You would use all available resources and navigate your way through the storms or turn back. Whatever the decision was, you did it with all information available.

So when PCL ALPA starts road shows, I will attend to gather as much as I can before placing a vote. I believe Menke will be at these shows as well and I will listen to, and question him as well. After all of this, I will vote. It may be wrong or right according to some, but it will be done with all of the information available and it will be what I feel the best course of action is.

 

[jynxyjoe]

I'm obliged to listen to the union as well, make the decision for myself. However, everything I hear from the union is that there is hope to avoid bankruptcy.

I have to ask though, wouldn't we be a lot stronger airline if we were able to renegotiate our leases on the 50 seaters or even drop a few of them?

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Really guys? You are cool with "5%, no plans to give it back" when you see the wasting of money left and right by this place?

If the bottom 1500 pilots made what I make right now, $41.10, and we took a 5% cut, based on 1000 credit hours a year, this company would save $3,082,500.

Full Pay to the Last Day. Oh, and any reps on here might take heed - I will be at the next DTW LEC meeting with a recall motion for everyone at the union if we get a TA with any concessions. It is insulting they are considering TA'ing anything other than contract GAINS.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Really guys? You are cool with "5%, no plans to give it back" when you see the wasting of money left and right by this place?

If the bottom 1500 pilots made what I make right now, $41.10, and we took a 5% cut, based on 1000 credit hours a year, this company would save $3,082,500.

Full Pay to the Last Day. Oh, and any reps on here might take heed - I will be at the next DTW LEC meeting with a recall motion for everyone at the union if we get a TA with any concessions. It is insulting they are considering TA'ing anything other than contract GAINS.

Well the last guy Pinnacle pulled off the DTW LEC became the MEC didn't he? Careful what you wish for.

It looks like you are quoting Menke's proposal on your top sentence. Is that what the union is actually asking us to vote on at this time?

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Well the last guy Pinnacle pulled off the DTW LEC became the MEC didn't he? Careful what you wish for.

It looks like you are quoting Menke's proposal on your top sentence. Is that what the union is actually asking us to vote on at this time?

It's strange how union politics works... however I would propose cleaning of the house - top down, everyone.

My stance is, any Tentative Agreement that does not have contract gains in all areas (pay, benefits, etc. etc.) will be a "No" vote. The fact that the union is considering sending out a concessionary TA ~ 12 months after a JCBA is very insulting. They're in bed with management.

 

[The Juice]

Really guys? You are cool with "5%, no plans to give it back" when you see the wasting of money left and right by this place?

If the bottom 1500 pilots made what I make right now, $41.10, and we took a 5% cut, based on 1000 credit hours a year, this company would save $3,082,500.

Full Pay to the Last Day. Oh, and any reps on here might take heed - I will be at the next DTW LEC meeting with a recall motion for everyone at the union if we get a TA with any concessions. It is insulting they are considering TA'ing anything other than contract GAINS.

This assumes that the restructuring currently taking place with CAL/United and Delta is not contingent on a 5% cut across the board. Dont know is this is the case but if I were CAL/United or Delta, I wouldn't agree to give more to PNCL if I did not see their own employees doing so.

This may be a good question for the road shows, because at face value the 5% in labor savings in not a major savings for the company (absent some other agreement that is tied in)

 

[SpiceWeasel]

This assumes that the restructuring currently taking place with CAL/United and Delta is not contingent on a 5% cut across the board. Dont know is this is the case but if I were CAL/United or Delta, I wouldn't agree to give more to PNCL if I did not see their own employees doing so.

This may be a good question for the road shows, because at face value the 5% in labor savings in not a major savings for the company (absent some other agreement that is tied in)

Since when did it become the employees' job to help the company restructure its mainline agreements via pay cuts? That's crazy talk. And why would our customers care what the line guy gets paid?

I guess I won't change your mind - you are welcome to vote yes to a pay cut, but I'd rather see the pay taken from me in bankruptcy court, since that's where we are going if they want to, pay cut or not. FUPM!

 

[jynxyjoe]

It's strange how union politics works... however I would propose cleaning of the house - top down, everyone.

My stance is, any Tentative Agreement that does not have contract gains in all areas (pay, benefits, etc. etc.) will be a "No" vote. The fact that the union is considering sending out a concessionary TA ~ 12 months after a JCBA is very insulting. They're in bed with management.

While you may judge their actions as betrayal, and believe me I'm trying not to say the same thing under my breath, I think it wise to actually LISTEN to what they have to say before we say no.

Keep in mind, for most -900 captains and SAAB guys at this airline (simply most of our seniority list), we consider this current JCBA to be an extention of our old concessionary contract... because it was. We sold out contract improvements for scope, plain and simple and brought everyone's wages up at Colgan and Pinnacle. Careful about getting on the high horse in public around Mesaba guys, especially when a number of them have actually BEEN through a sham bankruptcy and have committed to this airline. I only mention this because it sounds like you are bringing pitchforks and torches to the DTW meeting.

 

[jynxyjoe]

I guess I won't change your mind - you are welcome to vote yes to a pay cut, but I'd rather see the pay taken from me in bankruptcy court, since that's where we are going if they want to, pay cut or not. FUPM!

Don't give up on changing his mind, but you must bring something to the table in the way of facts here. You are selling principal, and principal doesn't work in the real world. If it had we'd all be at mainline. Try to let guys gather their own facts before you demand they submit to your opinions.

Does anyone actually have record of what the union is presenting for a vote? I'm a bit confused here it seems like there's a lot of quotes from Menke and that's a crap source at best.

 

[The Juice]

I guess I won't change your mind - you are welcome to vote yes to a pay cut, but I'd rather see the pay taken from me in bankruptcy court, since that's where we are going if they want to, pay cut or not. FUPM!

Change my mind? I have not made up my mind. I just posted 3 paragraphs on how I have not made up my mind on how I will vote. I just said that I do not plan on voting or deciding on anything in life without getting all the information I can.

You are the one who has made up their mind, absent any information that is soon to come, and that is your right. But no, there is no way in hell I am going to base my vote on what nameless forum pilots say I should do.

 

[derg]

Remember, the company (and sadly, the union in some circumstances) will want to sell you comfort with pay cuts.

If the company is going to go bankrupt, pay cuts will not affect it. We had 'steep and necessary pay cuts' to avoid bankruptcy and went bankrupt anyway. Then they cut them again.

Proactive engagement is a fools game.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Remember, the company (and sadly, the union in some circumstances) will want to sell you comfort with pay cuts.

If the company is going to go bankrupt, pay cuts will not affect it. We had 'steep and necessary pay cuts' to avoid bankruptcy and went bankrupt anyway. Then they cut them again.

Proactive engagement is a fools game.

But he signs his letters ~SEAN!!!

 

[SpiceWeasel]

While you may judge their actions as betrayal, and believe me I'm trying not to say the same thing under my breath, I think it wise to actually LISTEN to what they have to say before we say no.

Keep in mind, for most -900 captains and SAAB guys at this airline (simply most of our seniority list), we consider this current JCBA to be an extention of our old concessionary contract... because it was. We sold out contract improvements for scope, plain and simple and brought everyone's wages up at Colgan and Pinnacle. Careful about getting on the high horse in public around Mesaba guys, especially when a number of them have actually BEEN through a sham bankruptcy and have committed to this airline. I only mention this because it sounds like you are bringing pitchforks and torches to the DTW meeting.

Well you are misreading it, I think, if you feel I'm on a high horse about this. The JCBA definitely was an improvement in some areas for us (and a huge concession in others - read: insurance). I respect the commitment to the airline, and I can only assume at some point Mesaba was committed to its employees.

By virtue of Corp's purchase, the waters at Mesaba, for better or worse, have potential to be poisoned by many bitter Pinnacle pilots. Not bitter at SLI negotiation, mind you (though I can't quite speak for everyone), but more so at the treatment that we've received for years by the company and the union.

In order to build trust, both the union and company have the responsibility to foster a culture of equality. I don't see this culture when just 6 months ago some of us were awestruck at the apparent good-guy nature of "Sean". I don't see this culture when it appears that some sides of the union house get more care than others. Why are Pinnacle Pilots still staying at the same terrible hotels and why does our hotel committee not say anything? Better question - why are there two hotel committees for the same "brand" of flying?

I haven't been through a bankruptcy like some of the Mesaba guys have, but I haven't gotten the warm fuzzy feeling from anyone that makes me want to share in the sacrifice of the company's bad choices.

Don't give up on changing his mind, but you must bring something to the table in the way of facts here. You are selling principal, and principal doesn't work in the real world. If it had we'd all be at mainline. Try to let guys gather their own facts before you demand they submit to your opinions.

Does anyone actually have record of what the union is presenting for a vote? I'm a bit confused here it seems like there's a lot of quotes from Menke and that's a crap source at best.

Fact: 5% cut is what's publicly on the table from management.
Fact: Union has yet to be assertive in stating "we will not accept any concessionary contract proposals".

This fight has two fronts.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Change my mind? I have not made up my mind. I just posted 3 paragraphs on how I have not made up my mind on how I will vote. I just said that I do not plan on voting or deciding on anything in life without getting all the information I can.

You are the one who has made up their mind, absent any information that is soon to come, and that is your right. But no, there is no way in hell I am going to base my vote on what nameless forum pilots say I should do.

Well the reason it sounds like you've made up your mind is that I don't read "full pay to the last day" in your posts. If I'm wrong, point it out.

If you are in favor of any concession, clear that one up as well.

All the financial information in the world shouldn't make a pilot think "yeah, a pay cut would be good". It's not our problem that the company is in the situation it is in. By extension, it is not my paycheck's problem.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Well you are misreading it, I think, if you feel I'm on a high horse about this. The JCBA definitely was an improvement in some areas for us (and a huge concession in others - read: insurance). I respect the commitment to the airline, and I can only assume at some point Mesaba was committed to its employees.

By virtue of Corp's purchase, the waters at Mesaba, for better or worse, have potential to be poisoned by many bitter Pinnacle pilots. Not bitter at SLI negotiation, mind you (though I can't quite speak for everyone), but more so at the treatment that we've received for years by the company and the union.

In order to build trust, both the union and company have the responsibility to foster a culture of equality. I don't see this culture when just 6 months ago some of us were awestruck at the apparent good-guy nature of "Sean". I don't see this culture when it appears that some sides of the union house get more care than others. Why are Pinnacle Pilots still staying at the same shiesty hotels and why does our hotel committee not say anything? Better question - why are there two hotel committees for the same "brand" of flying?

I haven't been through a bankruptcy like some of the Mesaba guys have, but I haven't gotten the warm fuzzy feeling from anyone that makes me want to share in the sacrifice of the company's bad choices.



Fact: 5% cut is what's publicly on the table from management.
Fact: Union has yet to be assertive in stating "we will not accept any concessionary contract proposals".

This fight has two fronts.

I've often heard the lamentations of Pinnacle pilots about the insurance part. I don't know what to tell you about that except if you're sad you got a new car because you couldn't bring your shiny rim's from the 19~ Chevette, I can't being to assuage your remorse because it rings far too hollow in my ears. If it's that big of a deal I hope you voted no, otherwise it seems like a small, trivial, club to try and beat over our heads.

You are correct the union will not outwardly propose a brick wall against management. I image it's because they need to appear to the NMB that they are negotiating in good faith at all times, but I don't know their legal requirements on that. We have done fairly well to never be iced by the NMB, and we've been released for a strike in the past. I'd like to think our negotiating tactics give us a lot more leeway than you've been afforded in the past. Also, when we do go into bankruptcy (which I believe is a foregone conclusion at this point even though the union says it's not and apparently ALPA financial agrees) you can gripe all you want, a bankruptcy judge is a callous breed.

ALPA feels it's been shown over and over again that staying engaged in meaningful and faithful bargaining with the company leads to better results on a whole. It would appear Doug thinks that is a facade, and I will take that as an educated opinion, however at this point I am still gathering facts. I have all the emotion I need over here.

 

[derg]

But he signs his letters ~SEAN!!!

I know of a certain company that in intra-office memos uses phrases like:

"Jim says"

"Frank says"

"Billy says"

"Richard says"

"Tanya says"

Oh, so now we're having a fireside chat about how if we're 5 minutes late, "Tanya says" that she's going to strangle a baby harp seal, but since it's not "Mrs. Honeycutt, Vice President of Push Back on Time Even with Pax in the Jetway" and just written as "Tanya Says-" that it's like two friends talkin'? That Novacaine for the soul just makes everything feel better.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

I've often heard the lamentations of Pinnacle pilots about the insurance part. I don't know what to tell you about that except if you're sad you got a new car because you couldn't bring your shiny rim's from the 19~ Chevette, I can't being to assuage your remorse because it rings far too hollow in my ears. If it's that big of a deal I hope you voted no, otherwise it seems like a small, trivial, club to try and beat over our heads.

I haven't run the numbers for myself lately, but I'm pretty certain that even with my increase ($40/mo --> $120/mo), I still got a pay raise. I voted yes. There were too many good things in the contract for me that outweighed the increase in insurance (heck, an $80/mo increase is easily offset by 16 hours of extra pay, which can easily be achieved with the new work rules), but for others, the increase in insurance cost meant that status quo flying would net less at the end of the month.

You are correct the union will not outwardly propose a brick wall against management. I image it's because they need to appear to the NMB that they are negotiating in good faith at all times, but I don't know their legal requirements on that. We have done fairly well to never be iced by the NMB, and we've been released for a strike in the past. I'd like to think our negotiating tactics give us a lot more leeway than you've been afforded in the past. Also, when we do go into bankruptcy (which I believe is a foregone conclusion at this point even though the union says it's not and apparently ALPA financial agrees) you can gripe all you want, a bankruptcy judge is a callous breed.

ALPA feels it's been shown over and over again that staying engaged in meaningful and faithful bargaining with the company leads to better results on a whole. It would appear Doug thinks that is a facade, and I will take that as an educated opinion, however at this point I am still gathering facts. I have all the emotion I need over here.

I don't really feel emotional in saying no. To me it's just a fact that recalls will occur if they agree to concessions that affect my monthly take home.

We are in a terrible position, not being the management types, since 5 years of negotiations to the NMB appears fine, and yet we are worried that balking at any modifications to pay would lead to being out of favor with them. No matter the (D) or (R), we are apparently never on the NMBs good side.

Why isn't the line Mesaba guy incensed that the pay rates from the concessionary contract you guys had last time haven't been fixed? Why aren't we at or above the pay rates that the Mesaba MEC got way back when?

I'd like to add that the Sick Pay section of the contract needs to be high on the "fix" list the next time around, just as a random thought while we're talking concessions.