AirTran/SWA Seniority Integration Deal
- Thread starter SlumTodd_Millionaire
- Start date
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
FUD.
greaper007
Well-Known Member
Exactly, the last thing management wants is an unhappy pilot group. I know my dad has gotten calls in the last few years about not doing grey area things to help the company out. That's the way the guys who have been at the company 30 years fly though. He flew with captains that were initial hires in the 70s who would teach you to fly as fast as you can to the marker, taxi fast and turn around as quickly as possible. They had a ton of loyalty for the company that manifested itself in $10 million payouts in stock when they retired.
That whole company is built on having a happy employee group and lately the pilots, especially the senior FOs that expected to upgrade, are not happy. And the loyalty goes both ways. Herb would rather keep his core employees happy than make money off of AirTran's assets. I still don't know why AirTran pilot's would care about seats or bases or seniority if they're making 30% more. The only reason I go to work is to make money, otherwise I stay home and do things I actually find enjoyable.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Pay rates are temporary.
Seniority is forever.
A great example is United. First, they had the highest paying contract in the history of airlines. Next thing they knew, you needed 14 years seniority to be the plug at the company.
How much good did that pay rate do those guys?
Cptnchia
Dissatisfied Customer
Delta bought Northwest. We didn't staple. How could we be so stupid to not see it your way? If the plan is to prevent employee unrest, staple jobs are the last way to go.
skyw82
Well-Known Member
Whoah. Isn't saying "Period" before a "." or even at all at the end of a sentence redundant? Apologies in advance!
yeah but you put a "." before "period" and then finished it off with another ".". That's like the berlin wall of ending a sentence.
mrivc211
Well-Known Member
I agree, but the disparity between your two carriers wasn't of this magnitude. Would you feel the same way if say Delta would have bought Air Tran and they asked for the same DOH over DL pilots? I don't think a staple is a fair resolution, but asking for DOH is not fair and equitable either.
SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
Difference between the carriers?
I hope you remember what you wrote here if Skywest ever gets purchased by a carrier with a union contract. When that union decides it is best to integrate, the lack of a contract at your carrier will hurt your position. That precedent was set/upheld at XJ/9L/9E.
Cptnchia
Dissatisfied Customer
Airtran never asked for DOH, so not sure why you bring it up. Regardless, a Delta/AAI merger is completely different than the SWA/AAI deal. The career expectation of both AAI and SWA is to retire a 737 captain. While SWA is older, a relative seniority merge, starting at the year AAI came into exsistance would work.It protects the SWA guys senior to the most senior AAI dude.
In your example, the career expectation is different. 737 captain vs 777/747 captain. If we merged with AAI, or any other 737 operater, (!,) I would expect a relative seniority merge, with everything bigger than a 737 fenced for some predetermined length of time.
Inverted25
Well-Known Member
Could southwest release all the airtran pilots but keep the planes?
Cptnchia
Dissatisfied Customer
That would undoubtedly trigger a buttload of lawsuits, not to mention the unwanted attention of DOJ, DOL, and any Senator or Congressman who represents the affected folks.
Not sure that would square with the public good guy image SWA is trying to maintain.
BeRich
Very Special Agent
What's the big disparity here though, other than pay, which, again, is temporary? They both fly the same planes on the same types of routes.
Baronman
Well-Known Member
Because this is SOUTHWEST and ex-Valuejet.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Bam.
Pilots have this mythical view of Southwest, and don't get me wrong, everybody I've met there have been FANTASTIC people. I mean like seriously, GREAT PEOPLE. Decent pay, sounds like a wonderful place to work. In all honesty, nothing bad to say about the place.
BUT.
This is a business transaction, and and there are interests to be watched out for. More money now means NOTHING if you lose your job because of a furlough. And for the guys that say seniority means nothing, pay means everything, look at the TWA staple to the American list; if 9/11 hadn't happened, most, if not all of those guys wouldn't have lost their jobs. But because of 9/11, most (all?) of the "American" pilot furloughs were the TWA pilot group.
mrivc211
Well-Known Member
From my understanding they did ask for DOH. Todd can you clarify? Additionally, I disagree with you on the equipment you retire on being the only career expectation. If I'm not mistaken, the SWA captains gross earnings far exceed FL's and DAL's for that matter. My decade long mentor has been a captain there since the Morris Air days, this year he will gross over $300K. My best friend just hit his 4th year there is only has 600 pilots under him and will earn $150+ in 2011. The top captain at WN will gross $400K. While he has no life, he does have the ability to do so if he chooses. You can't say the same about any airline out there. The QOL at WN is far superior than any Legacy at the moment. With an avg lineholder getting 18 days off, reserves getting 15/16 at 90 hours of credit, average trips crediting 24 hrs for 3 days and 30+ hour for 4 days it simply doesn't compare to any airline, let alone FL.
Now this is just my opinion, doesn't make it any more true or right than any one elses, but at the end of the day all I care about is getting paid. Who ever pays me the most, for the least amount of work is where I want to be.
mrivc211
Well-Known Member
It's hard to make this comment without offending guys, so a disclaimer I mean no harm but I've noticed that directly sitting in the jump on mainline carriers for 6 years now, there is a lot of jealousy between legacy pilots directed at southwest pilots. I've heard everything from "I wouldn't be caught dead flying 5 legs a day on the Guppy for the rest of my life" to "I don't want to haul trailer trash around the USA". I think this is contributing towards a lot of guys claiming its a merger of two equals when it is not.
mrivc211
Well-Known Member
You're right, seniority is very important. But if you were to be on reserve for another 10 years at Southwest you're still going to gross $160,000 on reserve in your 10th year while getting 15-16 days off sitting in the right seat. That's what lineholders make on the 75/76 at most legacy's as a CAPTAIN.
To add to your comment on it being a business transaction, I completely agree. And in that sense, I strongly feel based on WN's prior actions, they will show no mercy in transfering all flying plane by plane to WN from FL if things get nasty.......IF. When I read this in the agreement the ALPA made with WN I could not believe they agreed to that. Does anyone else see the significance of this in the event it goes down the wrong path?
SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
#1 - contract will factor into the arbitration but not as much as SWA or even SWAPA wants it to. Binding arbitration....
#2 - in the case of comparing passengers who travel on SWA or AAI, if we want to make a stretch argument, AAI is bringing the high value customers to the operation, through first class seating. This assumes 1st class would stay, which it will not.
As a person with vested interest in DAL being profitable, removing first class seats out of ATL helps us out. The SWA-AAI integration will lose the combined company customers.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Oh..no..not THAT myth again...