Delta Connection: Operated by GoJet Airlines

[pilotlight]

Is it true go jet was just awarded delta flying?

I'm hearing this rumor and hoping someone can tell me it's a dream. If it's true every other dci carrier can kiss any growth goodbuy forget because who can compete with an airline that has pilots willing to do anything to undercut everyone else.

< merged into existing thread >

 

[Nigel Croker]

You know what I've found over the years?

The only people that make arguments like this don't work at an airline, and certainly don't work at a regional.

Well you would be partially correct, I no longer work at a regional airline. If you think I haven't sat at home on furlough, angry at being out of work, you'd be dead wrong. However, I too have learned a few things about aviation over the last 6-7 years.

1) Only you control your destiny, and you are only powerful enough to change it when you set aside emotion.
(For me I learned this lesson when I realized that being an "airline" pilot wasnt my goal, being a pilot was.)
2) Some people simply like to wallow in misery and you simply cant fix that.
3) These people will deflect anyone who tries to reason with them, which is why I have a low post count.
4) The phrase cant see the forest through the trees comes to mind often when I browse these forums.

Simply put, to continue to piss on this pilot group or that is rediculous, because they all work for crappy mgmt. Most took your jobs to beat someone in the door and gain seniority. Todays top regional will likely be tommorows bottom feeder at the next contract or merger, so to continue the battle with petty tactics like JS wars is a sure fire way to continue to lose the war. The rest is up to you.

disclaimer: At times in my career I too have been guilty of some of the things I now speak out about. I like to think that I have learned my lessons and moved on to a wiser way of thinking. My opinions are simply that, my opinions...

 

[Nigel Croker]

I think Seggy touched on this a little, however, it is important for everyone, even nigel, to know why. Mesaba had an alter ego carrier, Big Sky, who was created to destroy our contract value. We traded off some things for scope (including agreeing to PBS and the one pay scale for all FO's) and effectively cut out any growth on the Big Sky side. Big Sky was even offered membership and it was slapped away. Since then Mesaba has had a combative attitude towards any alter-ego carrier.

Those of you who work at GoJet's can ask the moustache little napoleon from TUP why we take extra time to deny GoJet from our jumpseaters. He and the ticket agent had some agreement where they would list him as a jumpseater on our flight, then immediately move him to the back so no one would know. It's frustrating and enraging all at the same time.

Point taken, however do you realize by denying those same seats you are perpetuating mgmt. (Hulas?) goal of divide and conquer. He's already won, because emotion is involved. He (they) could care less if you deny someone a JS, doesnt affect him (them) in the least.

 

[ppragman]

Really? Guess I'd be wasting my breath then by reminding you that you are playing right in to their hands. Do you not realize the most hated airline (xyz) changes almost monthly with the next merger, or contract announcment. Management continues to win this game because they successfully deflect the blame off themselves by convincing you (the pilot) that it wasnt them (mgmt), but that other pilot group (xyz airline) that PURPOSELY screwed you over. I guess its ok to keep up the hate, after all we are winning the battle...really we are, cant you tell?

You know what I've found over the years?

The only people that make arguments like this don't work at an airline, and certainly don't work at a regional.

I don't work at an airline, but management has always used the divide and conquer technique to reduce the power of labor. Solidarity isn't a four-letter-word. At the end of the day, pilots at both ASA and GoJet aren't paid adequately, and have been screwed over by the system that's been dictated by the race to the bottom that is the aviation industry as a whole. Solidarity is the key. One pilot group stomping on another is not.

GoJet pilots aren't the enemy of organized labor and good working conditions. Its the management hacks who created the company in the first place who are the ones to blame - and despite all the rancor that the pilot group gets, its management who came up with the scheme and implemented it. Being upset with the pilots who work there is a lot like taking TheraFlu, sure, it makes you feel better for a little while, but it doesn't make you get better any faster.

 

[Heath]

I'm sorry, but when management comes to labor and says we'll pay you X, and said labor group says "Go pound sand," and management subsequently starts a new, alter-ego airline and hires guys to come work for their initial offer, those guys aren't welcome in a cockpit that I occupy.

It's not about Go-Jets being cheap and gaining flying through competitive bidding. It's about being an alter-ego and damaging the entire industry by removing the leverage from TSA, and doing so knowingly. Nobody goes to work at Go-Jets not knowing that they're viewed negatively in the industry.

I feel no pity for anyone there that's denied a ride. It had nothing to do with gaining or losing a flying contract and everything to do with the damage they directly inflicted on the pilots of TSA.

 

[surreal1221]

Maybe ... if our management was worth anything ... they'd be fighting for some CRJ-700 flying for United ...

Hmm...

 

[Trip7]

Maybe ... if our management was worth anything ... they'd be fighting for some CRJ-700 flying for United ...

Hmm...

Going head up against GoJet, the New and Lean Mesa, and Skywest. Our only hope is completing the merger, and swaping 700s for 145s/200s 1 for 1

 

[BajtheJino]

those guys aren't welcome in a cockpit that I occupy.

Even the United guys?
I kinda feel like the Gojets guys/gals are on par with Colganites. They went where they went for whatever reason. But since Colgan got religion (when they couldn't get hired and suddenly realized they were going to be where they were for some time) their sins have been cleansed they're suddenly okay.
Nope.
I don't care who rides the jumpseat honestly. Denying someone doesn't make my pee pee any bigger and it doesn't change the industry.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Point taken, however do you realize by denying those same seats you are perpetuating mgmt. (Hulas?) goal of divide and conquer. He's already won, because emotion is involved. He (they) could care less if you deny someone a JS, doesnt affect him (them) in the least.

I'm sure Hulas is very impressed with how much you think of him.

If pilots missing their commute to work while his operation is about to grow some 50% doesn't effect Hulas and the TransStates holding company bottom line, then I would submit to all he is a wizard who really isn't a man but some sort of conjurer of dark magic. Also we should dunk him in the river to see if he floats.

I remember when guys told us we would never effect American attitude or policy toward us regarding jumpseating and American management didn't care how their pilots got to work, and not enough pilots commuted so it wouldn't be a problem. Some 20-30 days later American caved and we have unlimited reciprocating jumpseating on their airline.

 

[Nigel Croker]

I'm sure Hulas is very impressed with how much you think of him.

If pilots missing their commute to work while his operation is about to grow some 50% doesn't effect Hulas and the TransStates holding company bottom line, then I would submit to all he is a wizard who really isn't a man but some sort of conjurer of dark magic. Also we should dunk him in the river to see if he floats.

I remember when guys told us we would never effect American attitude or policy toward us regarding jumpseating and American management didn't care how their pilots got to work, and not enough pilots commuted so it wouldn't be a problem. Some 20-30 days later American caved and we have unlimited reciprocating jumpseating on their airline.

1) Only you control your destiny, and you are only powerful enough to change it when you set aside emotion.
(For me I learned this lesson when I realized that being an "airline" pilot wasnt my goal, being a pilot was.)
2) Some people simply like to wallow in misery and you simply cant fix that.
3) These people will deflect anyone who tries to reason with them, which is why I have a low post count.
4) The phrase cant see the forest through the trees comes to mind often when I browse these forums.

See points 3 and 4 in my previous post...I personally think this entire jumpseat war is doing more harm than good and is self destructive, but what do I know, Im not an airline pilot (as I'm constantly reminded by the guys I try to have reasonable conversations with...lol)

 

[jynxyjoe]

See points 3 and 4 in my previous post...I personally think this entire jumpseat war is doing more harm than good and is self destructive, but what do I know, Im not an airline pilot (as I'm constantly reminded by the guys I try to have reasonable conversations with...lol)

Well, I don't know if what I said passes for deflection but I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I believe "Jumpseat wars", the term, is meant to make some sort of joke out of these tactics. I don't know why you think it's going to "divide" anyone, when the plain and simple fact is that we are divided. GoJet's early on made it clear they wanted to "control their own destiny" or whatever at the expense of TSA pilots. I'm not worried about being united with them.

 

[MikeD]

GoJet's early on made it clear they wanted to "control their own destiny" or whatever at the expense of TSA pilots. I'm not worried about being united with them.

Speaking of United, do the United pilots who were furloughed and went to GoJets, do they get the same treatment? How does one differentiate who is who and not frat a potential friendly or neutral?

 

[Rocketman99]

See points 3 and 4 in my previous post...I personally think this entire jumpseat war is doing more harm than good and is self destructive, but what do I know, Im not an airline pilot (as I'm constantly reminded by the guys I try to have reasonable conversations with...lol)

3 and 4 clearly do not reflect at all on the events and outcome jynxy was talking about. I don't see how you can even try to say they apply here. Or perhaps there is some larger forest you can see that we can't in this instance. Explain.

 

[Rocketman99]

Speaking of United, do the United pilots who were furloughed and went to GoJets, do they get the same treatment? How does one differentiate who is who and not frat a potential friendly or neutral?

An interesting conundrum considering they were advised by their own people to seek employment at GoJets. I'm not sure what the correct answer to that is supposed to be.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Speaking of United, do the United pilots who were furloughed and went to GoJets, do they get the same treatment? How does one differentiate who is who and not frat a potential friendly or neutral?

The United MEC has given our union reps plenty of grief about this very topic. I don't know what the official reply is but I have my own reply; I'm sorry to the United pilots effected by this it has nothing to do with you, we have a long standing policy toward the alter ego carrier known as GoJets and any of the pilots currently working for GoJets will feel the effect.

We have Big Sky pilots working for Mesaba, should I keep them out of the jumpseat because they once worked for GoJets? We have at least one furloughed United pilot working at Mesaba. What if a Delta pilot who worked for Mesa, but interviewed at GoJets comes a knocking? Now the captain is in a pickle. Fortunately, none of this matters because GoJet's is not in the FOM as a listed airline with a reciprocating jumpseat agreement. The decision is made. If a Mesaba pilot feels strongly one way or the other he is free to call one of the chief pilots on duty at the time and request permission to carry the pilot in question.

Edit: In fairness to Mike, I hope my curtness isn't being taken as being a jerk. The matter is a closed subject to me, one which is very simple in my mind. It is a very hot button topic with people, one which we are judged on from time to time. No one cares about the thousands per pilot in concessions to the company and real millions lost thanks to the failed experiment called Big Sky. It's a sore spot.

 

[ppragman]

What you should do is give the guy your jumpseat. Then, together, discuss how you are going to use solidarity to your advantage for the betterment of the career field as a whole. Solidarity starts with you. You realize that if all of the pilots from every carrier said, "screw you" there wouldn't be any legislation or group of people who could stop us. The airplanes cannot physically move without us. So, we have the power. When we bicker amongst ourselves that power becomes diffuse and ineffective. You don't poo all over someone because they work for a company you don't like. You work together defeat the common enemy - which, collectively speaking is management at most airlines. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

 

[Rocketman99]

What you should do is give the guy your jumpseat. Then, together, discuss how you are going to use solidarity to your advantage for the betterment of the career field as a whole. Solidarity starts with you. You realize that if all of the pilots from every carrier said, "screw you" there wouldn't be any legislation or group of people who could stop us. The airplanes cannot physically move without us. So, we have the power. When we bicker amongst ourselves that power becomes diffuse and ineffective. You don't poo all over someone because they work for a company you don't like. You work together defeat the common enemy - which, collectively speaking is management at most airlines. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

How do you figure that to work with the original GoJet hires for instance? These are some TSA pilots who turned their back on their pilot group to take employment at GoJets. How much exactly do you think they care about bettering the profession? I can tell you how much, not one iota. I can also say with no remorse that person never has been and never will be "my friend."

 

[jynxyjoe]

What you should do is give the guy your jumpseat. Then, together, discuss how you are going to use solidarity to your advantage for the betterment of the career field as a whole. Solidarity starts with you. You realize that if all of the pilots from every carrier said, "screw you" there wouldn't be any legislation or group of people who could stop us. The airplanes cannot physically move without us. So, we have the power. When we bicker amongst ourselves that power becomes diffuse and ineffective. You don't poo all over someone because they work for a company you don't like. You work together defeat the common enemy - which, collectively speaking is management at most airlines. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

You know I love you man, but I think you are a world apart from reality.

 

[ppragman]

How do you figure that to work with the original GoJet hires for instance? These are some TSA pilots who turned their back on their pilot group to take employment at GoJets. How much exactly do you think they care about bettering the profession? I can tell you how much, not one iota. I can also say with no remorse that person never has been and never will be "my friend."

That's irrelevant, and it plays into managements' hands. They don't have to be your "friend" to stand together, they merely have to have a common goal - which, for most of us in the industry is a "better" career. While the specifics may differ, we usually want things to be better. You want this career to be better? Quit whining about something you can't do anything about (like a person's choice of employer, or how one pilot may or may not have screwed over another pilot - which any more is a semantic argument at GoJet) and stand together to solve the greater problems plaguing this frakked up industry. The god's honest truth is that it's not about you or any one pilot group. It's about all of us. There is no ALPA, Teamsters, UTU, etc. There are only pilots who have mutual interests and shouldn't be caught up in the politics of a system which is inherently stacked against us. Stand together and succeed, bicker and perish. If we all stood up and said, "we're not going to take it" there is no force that could stop us. Its not even a contest. They need us a lot more than we need them. Labor has and always will be more potent than capital, because labor creates capital, not the other way around.

 

[ppragman]

You know I love you man, but I think you are a world apart from reality.

What's wrong with solidarity?