jynxyjoe
Queso King
Moral of the story, since pilots bitch, and even worse they all bitch about different things you should ignore all of it is evidence that employees are the problem and not the industry.
I would add that you should ignore me too.
ABC nightline special on pilot fatigue & crash-pads
- Thread starter jdlilfan
- Start date
Moral of the story, since pilots bitch, and even worse they all bitch about different things you should ignore all of it is evidence that employees are the problem and not the industry.
I would add that you should ignore me too.
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
Is that including your medical benefits and living expenses? An O1, according to this chart, makes over 30k a year in base salary.
http://www.airforce.com/opportunities/officer/pay-chart/
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
The base pay does not include that stuff, no.
I wasn't advocating that a first year regional pilot be paid exactly like an O-1's total compensation, though.
Rocketman99
Frozen Guppy Manipulator
The additional benefits on top of the pay in the AF are worth a significant amount. Housing allowances, sustenance allowances, healthcare, permanent move payments, total moving expense coverage, COLA for overseas/high cost of livign locations, etc, were all significant benefits that no airline would even consider paying for fully. While the base pay not seem all that much (I think I made about 21K my first year and then 65K my last year in the AF in 2005), it is pratically all in your pocket money. An airline salary would need to really be double that to be comparable.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Now you guys in the airforce pay for your own training too right?
ppragman
No pasa nada.
I think $30,000 per year is satisfactory for a "first" job most places in the country. Military guys get housing, etc. but most pilot jobs don't really entail the same level of risk that an average O1 will experience starting out, nor will they work as hard for the most part (though there are exceptions on both sides of the line). The amount of working hours is almost irrelevant as companies will always try to maximize what they get out of you, if you bust your ass and don't make any money you're just as screwed as if you don't bust your ass and don't make any money. My personal opinion is that in a "perfect" world since inflation is about 3% that a pilot should get at least an inflation +5% to 7% raise yearly. If you do the math, that ends up with guys starting at $30,000 a year, ending off the career around $180,000 a year after 20 years, now... That "magic $500,000" after 10 years lines up with this too. I don't think that the future will be highly advantageous to pilot salaries, unless something catastrophic happens to the pilot supply, I suspect our pay will go down.
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
30-35k should be the minimum for any 121 carrier.
Not really.. I would blame the pilots that were around in the 80's and 90's who first gave up scope
Funny thing when I was based in JFK the CP was sleeping on the couches every night. Then the Company started paying for his hotel room, when people began to complain about not having enough places to sleep.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Yep. With every SAM and AAA shot.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Absolutely. I thank you for making my point for me.
There is a somewhat realistic expectation that Military pilots have coming to the civilian world. They don't have a ton of debt from training, they've more than paid their dues (different dues) even if they aren't the type of pilot that gets shot at. They train 8 hours to fly one, every cliche in the book I really had no desire to be a part of. Some of them have money from the government once they left as a retirement, others just leave for the airlines with no debt, tons of training and knowledge. A Major airline can't wait to hire them. Conversely the professional pilot has a different situation.
The professional pilot, if there is such a thing, and the longer I'm in this thing the less real that profession is, has debt coming from training. Let's forget for a second all the kids coming out now are children of wildly successful parents and have no debt. They have their choice of work to do afterwards to get their hours up vary's widely, but it's pretty lousy pay. Then they get enough hours to go Corp, airline, cargo, or something. Entry pay again. In the stagnation of this economy, and last decade, little has come of that entry level position for many pilots. Then you get that dream shot job, only to be furloughed, no health insurance for the first 6 months, pay for your own hotel, etc.
Hacker's point, while somewhat valid, attributes the symptom as the cause. I've had the advantage of creating a side business that is doing well right now, and I've had guys tell me, "see you are making it work". Maybe. Are WE making it work?? To do well, will we all have to become part timers? Is there no more professional pilot, except for the few who make it to the top of the pyramid scheme?
I don't think, until entry level airline pilot positions (yes regionals are airlines too. No really. Yes they are.) pay better than 30 grand WITH health insurance with either a national seniority list or a portable wage, that anyone should get into it. If you have no debt, no family, and don't mind living like crap after whatever you had to endure to get into this game, go for it. Make no mistake, you are not professional. None of us really are anymore.
But, as I said earlier:
jynxyjoe said:
I think fair first year pay, for all the training a professional pilot has gone through as well as the overall responsibility he has, is in the $50K - $55K range. I understand everyone's situation is different and all, but a guy still has to be able to make a decent living as a professional and should be compensated as such. Sure, first year pay is going to be somewhat low and you work your way up from there, but pay in the upper teens to the $20K's just shouldn't have to be an accepted norm. Granted, there's the angle of what the market will support in terms of supply and demand of pilots and how that relates to what can be negotiated. But if I were King of an airline.....lets say regional airline, I'd try to make it a place where one could stay if he wanted and even retire there. And if he didn't want to and desires to move on at some point in time; then if he does a good job and serves well, provide him a recommendation, give him a handshake for a job well done and thank him for being on the team for the time he was. I don't believe in the school of "it's just a stepping stone", either from management thinking they can pay beans because of that, or from workers accepting and happy for such beans like..... that akin to a battered wife not getting beaten for one day and thinking what a great day it is. To me, it wouldn't be a stepping stone, it'd simply be an airline.
If I were King for a day.
JOEFRIDAY2
Well-Known Member
I just have to believe that a person that has spent $100,000+ (soon to be $200,000+) for professional pilot training should be entitled to at least a living wage and a decent quality of life. I just don't like professional pilots being on food stamps and sleeping on couches and in crew rooms. It's un American and it should not be happening in this country.
Joe
Joe
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
What's "un-American" is thinking that spending a certain amount on something entitles some kind of wage or living condition.
Maybe in a socialist workers' paradise, but not in a free market capitalist system.
Sucks, but that's how it goes.
WacoFan
Bigly
Obviously pay is too low at the regionals starting out. But look at it from a business perspective...
I have an abundance of people willing to go in the hole $80-$100k in order to get $17-$23k per year jobs. Then, they say "You should pay us more...we are professionals!". To which a logical reply would be "How much of a professional can you be...you went $100k in the hole to get a $20k per year job - obviously you are bad at math and decision making".
I understand that is probably an unpopular response - but that is how most people outside the business, and most management would look at it.
Zap started a thread in the "Changing Careers" forum asking about Golden Handcuffs and whether it made sense to jump ship or not. There were various responses - some of which invoked the mysticism of aviators and the special breed...blah blah blah (sure...maybe when you were turning 4 R-3350's...but an RJ? Really?).
Anyway, I suggested to Zap that he substitute "Pilot" for "Accountant" or "Bricklayer" or "Septic Tank cleaner"...or anything really. Plug THAT title into your question and then work through the problem. Ex - "Should I make a lateral move that will diminish my pay and QOL for a while in hopes that I don't get laid off in the future and maybe someday I will reach my current level and then surpass it?" - would an accountant or a lawyer ever do this? Would a salesman or a doctor? Answer - no, they wouldn't even consider it. But pilots ask that all the time.
Apply that exercise to this thread: "Hmmm....I can go into debt $100k and learn to clean peoples septic tanks. I'll make $20k per year climbing slowly and assuming I don't get laid off I will make $100k after 10 years of slogging through human feces. Of course, I'll be living on Raman noodles, eligible for food stamps and paying back my loan by slogging through crap for years..."
Who would do that? Management views it that way. When people who are out of the business hear the fact pattern THEY view it that way. It simply makes no sense. Management will do what they can get away with - ultimately it is the pilots fault. It will never, ever change until people quit showing up at bottom feeders.
I have an abundance of people willing to go in the hole $80-$100k in order to get $17-$23k per year jobs. Then, they say "You should pay us more...we are professionals!". To which a logical reply would be "How much of a professional can you be...you went $100k in the hole to get a $20k per year job - obviously you are bad at math and decision making".
I understand that is probably an unpopular response - but that is how most people outside the business, and most management would look at it.
Zap started a thread in the "Changing Careers" forum asking about Golden Handcuffs and whether it made sense to jump ship or not. There were various responses - some of which invoked the mysticism of aviators and the special breed...blah blah blah (sure...maybe when you were turning 4 R-3350's...but an RJ? Really?).
Anyway, I suggested to Zap that he substitute "Pilot" for "Accountant" or "Bricklayer" or "Septic Tank cleaner"...or anything really. Plug THAT title into your question and then work through the problem. Ex - "Should I make a lateral move that will diminish my pay and QOL for a while in hopes that I don't get laid off in the future and maybe someday I will reach my current level and then surpass it?" - would an accountant or a lawyer ever do this? Would a salesman or a doctor? Answer - no, they wouldn't even consider it. But pilots ask that all the time.
Apply that exercise to this thread: "Hmmm....I can go into debt $100k and learn to clean peoples septic tanks. I'll make $20k per year climbing slowly and assuming I don't get laid off I will make $100k after 10 years of slogging through human feces. Of course, I'll be living on Raman noodles, eligible for food stamps and paying back my loan by slogging through crap for years..."
Who would do that? Management views it that way. When people who are out of the business hear the fact pattern THEY view it that way. It simply makes no sense. Management will do what they can get away with - ultimately it is the pilots fault. It will never, ever change until people quit showing up at bottom feeders.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Call me back!
JOEFRIDAY2
Well-Known Member
Every one of those Poverty WAGE Starting Regional Pilot salaries was VOTED IN and APPROVED by the PILOTS that were working at the company when the contract was presented. These same pilots (that voted in the low wages) then tell everyone not to work for such low wages.
The power to change this lies squarely with the pilots that are already on the property. Why do they even vote in these poverty wage contracts? Are they trying to keep everyone out? Or do they simply just not care about others? The pilots not yet on the property have absolutely no power to change the wages. Only the active pilots have that power.
The airlines can not pay higher starting salaries even if they wanted to. That would conflict with the contract that the pilots voted in and approved.
Joe
The power to change this lies squarely with the pilots that are already on the property. Why do they even vote in these poverty wage contracts? Are they trying to keep everyone out? Or do they simply just not care about others? The pilots not yet on the property have absolutely no power to change the wages. Only the active pilots have that power.
The airlines can not pay higher starting salaries even if they wanted to. That would conflict with the contract that the pilots voted in and approved.
Joe
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Regional airliners don't carry enough seats to leverage a position of high wages in the first few years in the right seat.
If you look at XJT's 10 year captain rate and compare them to CAL's 10 year captain rate on the 737, seat for seat, XJT pilots are being paid MORE than CAL pilots. How much more? Pre-concessionary rates.
Clamoring for more pay is great, but without an actual argument on why, all we're doing is wasting our time.
ComplexHiAv8r
Well-Known Member
So if the pay/seat is higher the wage could be higher if they flew aircraft with more seats and got the same pay/seat? Isn't that the exact opposite what the industry needs?
hambone
Well-Known Member
This needs more discussion. Bajthe is absolutely right. Commuters know they can do this and continue to get away with it, because they're thinking they're employees don't give a crap about their company and are only time building (effectively) so why should they give a crap about their employees?