ABC nightline special on pilot fatigue & crash-pads

jynxyjoe said:
We are dealing with pilots here. All the company would have to do is tell their employees by company memo, "Ladies and Gentlemen, we are moving you from Memphis to New York city next week, and even though all of you have an acceptable QOL living in a cheap part of the nation, we are going to move you to one of the most expensive places in the country with the half serious promise that we expect a lot of growth in the NYC market and expect you will all upgrade soon if you'll just pay the moving expenses for us. Delta is hiring! Fedex too! Work for free and absolution is right around the corner!"

Problem solved. Throw in a God damn fancy watch or something as a closer and you'll get the whole base to move.
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This.

It's not just the move, it's the cost of living, the level of pay, the turmoil to families, etc.
 
jtrain609 said:
Commuting will never be outlawed. If it were, there would be no airline pilots left to do the flying.

You're not suddenly going to convince 70% of your pilot group to say, "Hey! You know what would be a great idea? Moving my family every 18-24 months when I get displaced from base to base for the rest of my career! That sure sounds swell!"
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Kind of like if they only paid peanuts there would be no pilots, right? I understand what you are saying, but we have all proven we will fly for much less than our predecessors, so I do not know if you can make that blanket statement. My point was be careful what you wish for. I do not think anybody in their right mind would want the media and Congress to start investigating crashpads, crew room snoozes after commutes, etc. Duty time, rest time, flight time issues, absolutely. Crashpads...stay out!!

Also, we are talking about Congress and knee jerk reactions...the same things that created the TSA, and other abominations to our great country. So, why would Congress care if some airline pilots had to move to keep their jobs?
 
Stone Cold said:
Kind of like if they only paid peanuts there would be no pilots, right? I understand what you are saying, but we have all proven we will fly for much less than our predecessors, so I do not know if you can make that blanket statement. My point was be careful what you wish for. I do not think anybody in their right mind would want the media and Congress to start investigating crashpads, crew room snoozes after commutes, etc. Duty time, rest time, flight time issues, absolutely. Crashpads...stay out!!

Also, we are talking about Congress and knee jerk reactions...the same things that created the TSA, and other abominations to our great country. So, why would Congress care if some airline pilots had to move to keep their jobs?
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:) hehe. "Only show them what we want to show them, journalist won't investigate, they'll just take what we feed them. Same thing with congress!"

Negatron Stone Cold. Time to open the shades and let some light in.
 
jynxyjoe said:
:) hehe. "Only show them what we want to show them, journalist won't investigate, they'll just take what we feed them. Same thing with congress!"

Negatron Stone Cold. Time to open the shades and let some light in.
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Cool...let me know how that works out for you!
 
HVYMETALDRVR said:
Glad that this stuff is on TV now. The low pay is bad, got it, we all complain and fight back and forth on contracts over that, but the grueling schedules and lack of sleep is a whole 'nother story.

The best part was the video proof of the pilots sleeping in the crew lounges after the companies denied this happens and the FAA said they "weren't aware" this was going on...:insane:

Wondering if it will get the ball rolling (faster) on the legislation already in progress...
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Glad? Over what? Do you really think that this hatchet job of a story is going to change anything? This is actually a bad thing by having this on TV. You'll get a piece of crap member of Congress try to push legislation to outlaw crash pads and force pilots to live in base or some other God awful measure.. The only thing that will ever change this is people not working for crap airlines like Colgan or Lakes or the like. But yet we have guys willing to stab someone in front of their mother for these jobs. This website is full of the proof. Its kind of like the companies that used to not pay for a hotel during training. They finally got to the point they couldn't fill classes so what did they do? They started paying for a hotel room during training.
Besides, does any one really think that this new legislation is going to solve any problems? Its not going to force a higher pay scale. Its not going to force any airline to really change anything other than hiring more people to do the same amount of flying (which means having to pay 2 people to do the job that 1 did before-yep, that will mean more money for all of us won't it?) I'm not saying things are great but having some knuckle head that knows 0 (ZERO) about the industry trying to legislate so that The People are happy, not the people flying The People, is going to make things way worse than they are now.
The people that took the concealed cameras into the crew rooms should be tarred and feathered and drummed out of aviation. These people have done more to harm their fellow aviators than anyone else, except maybe the people at ALPA that are supposedly fighting for all of us. If pilots truly demanded higher pay and better work rules these are the people that would make it happen wouldn't they? But in the end its all of Us that tolerate the status quo. As long as regionals will hire people, people will do whatever it takes to get those jobs and then do whatever it takes to continue this Predetermined Path that we're all lead to believe is the path to the Promised Land (1000 TPIC and on to the MAJORS!). Until people look at the Regionals as a career and not a stepping stone nothing will change. And lets face it, for the majority of us it is going to be a career as there are more of us than positions in The Promised Land.
 
The Phoenix affiliate ran this last night with their own take...though like normal he referred to 3407 as a Continental Airlines aircraft, Colgan was never mentioned...
 
The only thing that I didn't like much was the guy that was commuting from LAX to EWR for a 17k job. Complaining on TV? I mean what do you expect?? You might get about 30 hours of off time per week if you're lucky if you have to worry about xcountry commuting. Commuting sucks. Plain and simple. Airlines will never pay for a hotel. And congress will inevitably screw it up and force crews to move to base so that's also hopeless. Unfortunately if you want any kind of quality of life you have to move.
 
BajtheJino said:
Its kind of like the companies that used to not pay for a hotel during training. They finally got to the point they couldn't fill classes so what did they do? They started paying for a hotel room during training.
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But that's different in terms of $$$. The airline's position is that the pilots can live anywhere they want as long as they show up for duty. Nobody can force them to pay flight crews for the hotel the previous night. That's why they spend money on CASS and jump seating. If they're pressured by congress then what they'll do is make everyone live in base. If you're a new pilot or even an existing one what are you going to do if every airline makes you live in base? Not work or move to base?
 
hrjet said:
The only thing that I didn't like much was the guy that was commuting from LAX to EWR for a 17k job. Complaining on TV? I mean what do you expect?? You might get about 30 hours of off time per week if you're lucky if you have to worry about xcountry commuting. Commuting sucks. Plain and simple. Airlines will never pay for a hotel. And congress will inevitably screw it up and force crews to move to base so that's also hopeless. Unfortunately if you want any kind of quality of life you have to move.
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Oh lordy, lordy, what will the airlines do if all their 1-4th year FO's fresh out of college/FBO can't live with mom and dad? Which do you think would be cheaper, paying us significantly more or positive space before every assignment? Every regional positive spacing on top of pos space deadheads... Oh what fun.
 
jynxyjoe said:
Oh lordy, lordy, what will the airlines do if all their 1-4th year FO's fresh out of college/FBO can't live with mom and dad? Which do you think would be cheaper, paying us significantly more or positive space before every assignment? Every regional positive spacing on top of pos space deadheads... Oh what fun.
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Well who wouldn't be for all that? The problem is the FAA and the gov is not going to force them to positive space pilots.
 
And to steer things back on topic...

This article wasn't really focused that much on pay, more on schedules. People aren't going to feel bad for us taking a pay cut, not when the economy is tanked and the nation is still sitting around 9 percent unemployment. But scheduling and rest can change and get better, and that is something people would be behind I think since its more in the interest of safety. The problem is its going to take at least one more crash for the public to take things seriously...:(
 
hrjet said:
Well who wouldn't be for all that? The problem is the FAA and the gov is not going to force them to positive space pilots.
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No, I screwed up saying that a bit. Going along the same line as, the company would have to offer some things to keep employees while they play multiple base every two years would be, "Hey we'll pos space you for your duty assignment." They could just pay more so you could afford to live in a hole like NYC, but that's not going to happen on principal alone. Companies love the commuting, and they'll fly extra planes if they have to just so the money doesn't goto a lazy unproductive pilot who should be paying them to fly.

Hehe, bitter much jynxyjoe?
 
HVYMETALDRVR said:
And to steer things back on topic...

This article wasn't really focused that much on pay, more on schedules. People aren't going to feel bad for us taking a pay cut, not when the economy is tanked and the nation is still sitting around 9 percent unemployment. But scheduling and rest can change and get better, and that is something people would be behind I think since its more in the interest of safety. The problem is its going to take at least one more crash for the public to take things seriously...:(
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I'm not saying people should or would feel bad for our paycut. The companies will still want to make money and that takes pilots to be at the base flying airplanes around.

Why anyone believes salvation will come from the John Q Traveling public should have had that hope smashed to bits after Colgan. Everyone is looking for handouts like they still want their parents allowance. Pay, Scope, respect will come back to the pilot profession when pilots start demanding it from union negotiated CBA's. Simply put, take it back.
 
Didn't watch the piece, but we as a group of pilots are the ones to blame. We are the ones in the unions who do nothing about the piss poor conditions and we are the ones who accept the pay and piss poor work rules, or worse, pay for a job flying a Beech 1900. Management didn't screw us, we screwed ourselves.
 
As I am just getting into this profession,

1. what is fair compensation and working hours/ conditions for this line of work?
 
pdxcfi said:
As I am just getting into this profession,

1. what is fair compensation and working hours/ conditions for this line of work?
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Great question that I'm not sure you'll ever find a satisfactory answer for. The best I've been able to get out of the vast hordes of folks complaining about the pay is something on the order of "we'll know it when we see it", or a reference to some pay scale of the past.

You ask the same thing to a Major pilot, and he'll say something about United's contract 2000, which was supposedly the largest ever payscale...but completely economically unsustainable.

So, there's not one "magic number".

If I were to compare the military officer pay scale to the airlines, and pair up similar levels of experience and responsibility, I'd say that the bottom end should come up to about $25,000-$30,000 for the first year or two.
 
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