Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule included

Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

Honest question: How does that work? I was under the impression that anything over nine seats had to be operated Part 121.


Under 135 over 9 pax or 7500 lbs payload you can no longer use an autopilot to waive the FO requirement so it has to be 2 crew. There are no restrictions on aircraft size that I know of (I've seen 727's available for charter in Charter Hub).
 
Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

You're right. There will be people who are discouraged to pursue the career, particularly if they know ahead of time that it's a long haul to get into the right seat of an airliner. 90-days from zero to RJ pilot will be a thing of the past, and that's the way it should be. And, when supply of pilots goes down, price of pilots goes up if conventional economic theory holds up.

.. and this is where the safety aspect comes in.

Time and time again, I'd heard stories about the low-timers getting their real-world experience the hard way. The only thing keeping many of them from creating those hypothetical 'smoking holes' were the Captains next to them.

Such testimonies- later gleaned from said Captains- are proof that things like ultra-low time FOs, Multi-crew pilot licenses (or whatever) are all akin to the 'trained pilot and a trained monkey to assist him' mentality.

Even automation, in all its technical glory, is only as good as the program that runs it, which often as not was written by people who don't use the end product.

By raising the cost of a pilot somewhat, we raise the price an airline is willing to pay.

When a pilot is suitable compensated and duly regarded as valuable by his or her employer, they bring that to the work place. The end effect on the psychology of a pilot is apparent. The constant, lingering fear that a pilot can be readily replaced upon termination should not be the first thing a pilot thinks of when they have to make "an unpopular business decision", ie, act in the name of safety in opposition to the profit margin.

When a pilot is harassed for calling in sick, or fatigued, or continuously extended, or asked to do things questionable or even downright illegal, the last thing that should cross his or her mind is that they don't know if they're worth the trouble they might make for the company by saying 'no'.

A pilot who cannot refuse a situation beyond his or her limits is no longer a pilot- they're just a marginally better informed passenger along on a test flight.

The airlines get away with this all too often.

Sometimes, however, they don't, and the pilots are goaded into situations they shouldn't go into. The need to 'get there' or 'get it done' or as one Captain put it, 'move the rig' exists.

This is not combat. Nobody dies if we don't get it there.

... but they just might if we're trying to do things beyond our limits and encounter the unexpected.

That's why we have to know our value.

It starts with drawing a line. Not a damned inch more.
 
Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

how do you figure?

Because if I screw up an argument as a lawyer, somebody loses some money.

But if I screw up as a pilot, everybody dies.

It isn't an issue that pilots think about, frankly. It's morbid, it's dramatic, it's just something that doesn't happen that often.

But the crux of the situation is that if a pilot REALLY eats crap, then a bunch of people eat crap with him. Those are not the odds that lawyers and doctors live with.

Doctors can only kill one person at a time.

The sooner that we, as a group of pilots, realize that, the better.
 
Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

But the crux of the situation is that if a pilot REALLY eats crap, then a bunch of people eat crap with him. Those are not the odds that lawyers and doctors live with.

Eh. Unless they're driving their kids to soccer practice in their minivan. I don't really disagree with the intent, here, but these sorts of statements are dramatic...they're emotional appeals, not logical ones. There are lots of good, logical reasons to want more experienced crew in an airplane, but "We constantly walk a razor thin wire between life and death!@" isn't one of them.

Plus, (I'm not sure this horse is quite dead yet...) nobody cares. Joe Sixpack doesn't care how tough our jobs are or aren't, and they certainly don't give a toss how well we're remunerated for our efforts. As far as The Invisible Hand is concerned, if we're still showing up for work, we're being adequately compensated. The road to improvement isn't through convincing everyone that we're steely-eyed aces cheating death at every turn, it's through flexing political will and muscle.
 
Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

Far more important, I think, is the requirement for new rest requirements. Is that included in the bill?

In the text of the bill http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-915 there is a requirement in section 306 for them to conduct a study on fatigue.

Also, I don't know if this is new or not, but section 816 says that any pilot doing any flying under part 91 has to count that towards his or her maximum duty day for 121 or 135 operations.
 
Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

Eh. Unless they're driving their kids to soccer practice in their minivan. I don't really disagree with the intent, here, but these sorts of statements are dramatic...they're emotional appeals, not logical ones. There are lots of good, logical reasons to want more experienced crew in an airplane, but "We constantly walk a razor thin wire between life and death!@" isn't one of them.

I don't think they're JUST dramatic or emotional, they're mathematical.

I mean I know you're used to flying little more than boxes, you freakin' freight driver ( :) ), but really let's take a look at this from an objective standpoint; if a DC-9 driver screws up and doesn't put the flaps down he kills everybody while dragging the plane across I-94.

If a CRJ driver doesn't line up on right runway, you kill 50 people.

If a Q driver doesn't perform a stall recovery correctly, he kills 50 people.

The fact of the matter is that FLYING IS DANGEROUS. It is not a natural condition for humans to be in, but we make it safe. We make it safe through reason and experience.

But don't think that the margins aren't razor thin. It's easy to think they're not when you do it every day for a living, but when you consider what you're actually DOING, it should become obvious that it's a very creative way to get a lot of people killed at once.
 
Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

Because if I screw up an argument as a lawyer, somebody loses some money.

But if I screw up as a pilot, everybody dies.

It isn't an issue that pilots think about, frankly. It's morbid, it's dramatic, it's just something that doesn't happen that often.

But the crux of the situation is that if a pilot REALLY eats crap, then a bunch of people eat crap with him. Those are not the odds that lawyers and doctors live with.

Doctors can only kill one person at a time.

The sooner that we, as a group of pilots, realize that, the better.


Amen brother.
 
Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

In the text of the bill http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-915 there is a requirement in section 306 for them to conduct a study on fatigue.

Also, I don't know if this is new or not, but section 816 says that any pilot doing any flying under part 91 has to count that towards his or her maximum duty day for 121 or 135 operations.

Study on fatigue? Aren't there already enough 'studies' out there? I can tell you that I already know that when I'm at the end of my 24-hour duty day, my performance is equivalent to someone with a BAC of 0.08%. The research is done, it's just that nobody is paying attention to the research.
 
Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

"No person may serve as a pilot crewmember under 14 CFR Part 121 unless that person possesses an Airline Transport Pilot certificate with the appropriate category, class, and type (if applicable) ratings."

I agree with everything except needing to have the ATP certificate. Have the mins and maybe the written out of the way. The PIC type will be the ATP ride when it comes time to upgrade so the certificate itself shouldn't be a factor.
 
Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

This is truly hilarious.

This Bill will do nothing to truly improve safety at the airlines. Nothing. Creating some arbitrary number for a minimum requirement--that I'd estimate 10% or less of all regional pilots were hired with--is ridiculous. Let's face it: Most regional pilots have been hired with over 1000 hours total time, yet we'll pretend it's the 300-hour wonders who are doing the industry a disservice.

We all come on here and spout off how we need to get better rest rules... Better working conditions... Better training... More money... More benefits. Yet in the same breath, we complain about our medical requirements, degree requirements, how hard a checkride was, and how tough that interview was. We want it all, but we don't want to work for it.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, especially from some more vocal "pro-pilot" members like ATN_Pilot, but our hiring and checking processes are weak. I've seen pilots who have fumbled their way through checkrides year after year who are still out there on the line. I've seen pilots who would collapse if they were made to run down the length of their aircraft's cabin, let alone a true test of physical competence. We want to be paid like doctors and lawyers, yet we shouldn't require a degree to be a professional pilot? Doctors and lawyers require years more school than pilots.

Now we'll hear how we go through years of extensive training to gain our ratings, and how tough it is... I'm sorry, but most pilots I've known spent a week memorizing the Gleim book, took a written test, and passed. We all know pilots who have had their hand held their entire career, and now sit in the cockpit of a 121 airline. Our training and testing here in the US is a JOKE.

The US Government is not going to step in and force this to be a profession again. WE are the only ones who can make that happen. However, that would require more stringent hiring requirements in terms of aptitude and knowledge, not some arbitrary number of hours. Until we are tougher on ourselves, we deserve what we get.
 
Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

Far more important, I think, is the requirement for new rest requirements. Is that included in the bill?

Apart from the requirement for a study, I haven't heard anything about it.

Fortunately, it will screw Gulfstream's little scam.

If not them, it will be somebody else. This bill will give even more incentive for some companies to offer PFJ positions to get some multi-crew hours in icing, because now there will be actual regulatory obstacles to overcome. And they'll get people.

You're right. There will be people who are discouraged to pursue the career, particularly if they know ahead of time that it's a long haul to get into the right seat of an airliner. 90-days from zero to RJ pilot will be a thing of the past, and that's the way it should be. And, when supply of pilots goes down, price of pilots goes up if conventional economic theory holds up.

The problem with trying to legislate SJS away is that conventional economic theory expects that people will act rationally, while SJS is an entirely irrational motivator (at least from an economic standpoint). If people are crazy enough to accept being paid peanuts in order to fly something with an airline logo on it, it matters very little how many hours are required, because most of them will still do it after getting those hours. And then we're back to square one.
 
Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

I doubt it. They will figure out a work around. If you pay a lawyer enough, the'll figure it out. Or, maybe they will still run the program, and require 800TT. Do you really think that a kid fresh out of Riddle, with 800TT instructing in spam cans won't have mom and dad pony up the bucks for "the airline experince?" I'm not sure of the percentage, but you and I both know that some kids go to Riddle on mom and dads dime.


And what is wrong with that? Many parents pay for their children education, not just in aviation. I would hope to be able to pay for my son or daughters full college tuition when the time comes.
 
Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

Because if I screw up an argument as a lawyer, somebody loses some money.

But if I screw up as a pilot, everybody dies.

It isn't an issue that pilots think about, frankly. It's morbid, it's dramatic, it's just something that doesn't happen that often.

But the crux of the situation is that if a pilot REALLY eats crap, then a bunch of people eat crap with him. Those are not the odds that lawyers and doctors live with.

Doctors can only kill one person at a time.

The sooner that we, as a group of pilots, realize that, the better.

So according to your reasoning a school bus driver is also of equal or higher value to society. Everybody thinks their particular skillset is worth more than what it is. That's the beauty of a free market. It is the final judge of reality.
 
Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

This is truly hilarious.

This Bill will do nothing to truly improve safety at the airlines. Nothing. Creating some arbitrary number for a minimum requirement--that I'd estimate 10% or less of all regional pilots were hired with--is ridiculous. Let's face it: Most regional pilots have been hired with over 1000 hours total time, yet we'll pretend it's the 300-hour wonders who are doing the industry a disservice.

We all come on here and spout off how we need to get better rest rules... Better working conditions... Better training... More money... More benefits. Yet in the same breath, we complain about our medical requirements, degree requirements, how hard a checkride was, and how tough that interview was. We want it all, but we don't want to work for it.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, especially from some more vocal "pro-pilot" members like ATN_Pilot, but our hiring and checking processes are weak. I've seen pilots who have fumbled their way through checkrides year after year who are still out there on the line. I've seen pilots who would collapse if they were made to run down the length of their aircraft's cabin, let alone a true test of physical competence. We want to be paid like doctors and lawyers, yet we shouldn't require a degree to be a professional pilot? Doctors and lawyers require years more school than pilots.

Now we'll hear how we go through years of extensive training to gain our ratings, and how tough it is... I'm sorry, but most pilots I've known spent a week memorizing the Gleim book, took a written test, and passed. We all know pilots who have had their hand held their entire career, and now sit in the cockpit of a 121 airline. Our training and testing here in the US is a JOKE.

The US Government is not going to step in and force this to be a profession again. WE are the only ones who can make that happen. However, that would require more stringent hiring requirements in terms of aptitude and knowledge, not some arbitrary number of hours. Until we are tougher on ourselves, we deserve what we get.
Amen.
 
Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

Study on fatigue? Aren't there already enough 'studies' out there? I can tell you that I already know that when I'm at the end of my 24-hour duty day, my performance is equivalent to someone with a BAC of 0.08%. The research is done, it's just that nobody is paying attention to the research.

Whoever though up the whole 10 and 14 rule is a idiot...New rest and duty periods need to be legislated. 12 and 12 would be good, 14 rest and 10 duty would be great.
 
Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

This is truly hilarious.

This Bill will do nothing to truly improve safety at the airlines. Nothing. Creating some arbitrary number for a minimum requirement--that I'd estimate 10% or less of all regional pilots were hired with--is ridiculous. Let's face it: Most regional pilots have been hired with over 1000 hours total time, yet we'll pretend it's the 300-hour wonders who are doing the industry a disservice.

We all come on here and spout off how we need to get better rest rules... Better working conditions... Better training... More money... More benefits. Yet in the same breath, we complain about our medical requirements, degree requirements, how hard a checkride was, and how tough that interview was. We want it all, but we don't want to work for it.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, especially from some more vocal "pro-pilot" members like ATN_Pilot, but our hiring and checking processes are weak. I've seen pilots who have fumbled their way through checkrides year after year who are still out there on the line. I've seen pilots who would collapse if they were made to run down the length of their aircraft's cabin, let alone a true test of physical competence. We want to be paid like doctors and lawyers, yet we shouldn't require a degree to be a professional pilot? Doctors and lawyers require years more school than pilots.

Now we'll hear how we go through years of extensive training to gain our ratings, and how tough it is... I'm sorry, but most pilots I've known spent a week memorizing the Gleim book, took a written test, and passed. We all know pilots who have had their hand held their entire career, and now sit in the cockpit of a 121 airline. Our training and testing here in the US is a JOKE.

The US Government is not going to step in and force this to be a profession again. WE are the only ones who can make that happen. However, that would require more stringent hiring requirements in terms of aptitude and knowledge, not some arbitrary number of hours. Until we are tougher on ourselves, we deserve what we get.

I agree. At the very least, the FAA writtens should be similar to the JAA ATPL tests. In fact, I would even be up for all certificate holders having to go back and take the tests, ATPs included. I've seen some real numbskulls get through the FAA writtens via Gleim, etc, and afterwards they didn't have a clue what they were doing.
 
Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

I agree. At the very least, the FAA writtens should be similar to the JAA ATPL tests. In fact, I would even be up for all certificate holders having to go back and take the tests, ATPs included.

WTF that would be stupid..

Question, Why does the FAA allow companies like Gleim to have access to the questions word for word?
 
Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

WTF that would be stupid..

Question, Why does the FAA allow companies like Gleim to have access to the questions word for word?

Why would it be stupid? It would demonstrate a real foundation of knowledge, rather than short term memory.
 
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