Passenger attempts to blow up Northwest Airlines flight..
- Thread starter derg
- Start date
Mike H
Well-Known Member
Re: Passenger attempts to blow up Northwest Airlines flight.
I didn't walk into anything. Re-read what I posted. I specifically said "Muslim terrorist" In your examples, picture #1 doesn't look much like a terrorist, and would thus be subject to an extremely through screening and probably follow up screenings- even though she clearly has nowhere to hide any weapons. Picture #2 should clearly be subject to special screening. "Sorry if you're not a terrorist, sir- you'll just have to thank your co-religionists for the extra scrutiny, and no, there'll be no apology". Same story for picture #3, thanks to Major Hasan, and again, no apology.
If you think I'm being dismissive of you, ILSstud, you're right, I am. I find nothing particularly profound or compelling about the premise of what you appear to be arguing
Just asking....you walked into that one MikeH.
Is this what you are referring to?
Or this...?
Or...could it be this...
I didn't walk into anything. Re-read what I posted. I specifically said "Muslim terrorist" In your examples, picture #1 doesn't look much like a terrorist, and would thus be subject to an extremely through screening and probably follow up screenings- even though she clearly has nowhere to hide any weapons. Picture #2 should clearly be subject to special screening. "Sorry if you're not a terrorist, sir- you'll just have to thank your co-religionists for the extra scrutiny, and no, there'll be no apology". Same story for picture #3, thanks to Major Hasan, and again, no apology.
If you think I'm being dismissive of you, ILSstud, you're right, I am. I find nothing particularly profound or compelling about the premise of what you appear to be arguing
The Gardener
Terrafirma Phobic
Re: Passenger attempts to blow up Northwest Airlines flight.
If the second guy was a terrorist threat he would be clean shaven.
Just sayin' is all!
If the second guy was a terrorist threat he would be clean shaven.
Just sayin' is all!
ILSstud
Well-Known Member
Re: Passenger attempts to blow up Northwest Airlines flight.
Exactly what I was thinking!
Exactly what I was thinking!
The Gardener
Terrafirma Phobic
Re: Passenger attempts to blow up Northwest Airlines flight.
I think the girl would be the terrorist. The real terrorist could threaten her to do it or they'd kill her entire family. It works equally effective for both terrorist and drug lords in Mexico...
ILSstud
Well-Known Member
Re: Passenger attempts to blow up Northwest Airlines flight.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/12/28/airline.terror.attempt/index.html
Al Qaeda claims responsibility for failed terror attack.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/12/28/airline.terror.attempt/index.html
Al Qaeda claims responsibility for failed terror attack.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Re: Passenger attempts to blow up Northwest Airlines flight.
Of course they do.
Even if there was no actual connection prior to the attempt, it successfully scared lots of people and modified our behavior.
Why WOULDN'T they claim responsibility?
Of course they do.
Even if there was no actual connection prior to the attempt, it successfully scared lots of people and modified our behavior.
Why WOULDN'T they claim responsibility?
Bandit_Driver
Gold Member
Re: Passenger attempts to blow up Northwest Airlines flight.
We've have become far to PC to in this country, which is part the reasons we are having the problems we face today. Profiling should be just one of many tools ecurity is allowed to use.
We've have become far to PC to in this country, which is part the reasons we are having the problems we face today. Profiling should be just one of many tools ecurity is allowed to use.
The Gardener
Terrafirma Phobic
Re: Passenger attempts to blow up Northwest Airlines flight.
Yeah, because because terrorists would never think to wear normal clothes.
You can't seriously think searching under every turban is going to solve the problem do you?
Yeah, because because terrorists would never think to wear normal clothes.
You can't seriously think searching under every turban is going to solve the problem do you?
twotwowoo
New Member
Re: Passenger attempts to blow up Northwest Airlines flight.
Yeah, because terrorists run around in obviously Muslim garb screaming "I'm a terrorist! Stop me!" In case you didn't notice, the would-be bomber was Nigerian, obviously not the picture of a stereotypical Arab terrorist. Richard Reid was a white European. Jose Padilla was a Latino American. Al Qaeda is evil, but not stupid - they know to stay away from obvious terrorist stereotypes. All racial profiling will do is subject innocent Americans to damaging, racist, dehumanizing treatment while letting the actual threat(s) walk right on through.
Yeah, because terrorists run around in obviously Muslim garb screaming "I'm a terrorist! Stop me!" In case you didn't notice, the would-be bomber was Nigerian, obviously not the picture of a stereotypical Arab terrorist. Richard Reid was a white European. Jose Padilla was a Latino American. Al Qaeda is evil, but not stupid - they know to stay away from obvious terrorist stereotypes. All racial profiling will do is subject innocent Americans to damaging, racist, dehumanizing treatment while letting the actual threat(s) walk right on through.
SmoothLanderJ
Well-Known Member
Re: Passenger attempts to blow up Northwest Airlines flight.
Great point!
Another good point here too......
Great point!
Another good point here too......
twotwowoo
New Member
Re: Passenger attempts to blow up Northwest Airlines flight.
Also, if racial profiling is so effective at stopping crime, then why stop at just terrorism? Why not follow blacks around department stores, because we all know they're more likely to steal. Why not bar all single white males from children's events, because we all know they're pedophiles, right? Why not stop all Hispanics driving on the freeway, because of course they're likely to be smuggling drugs! I mean, if racial profiling can stop Al-Qaeda, then of course it can stop every day, two-bit criminals, right?! What are we waiting for, let's get at it!
Also, if racial profiling is so effective at stopping crime, then why stop at just terrorism? Why not follow blacks around department stores, because we all know they're more likely to steal. Why not bar all single white males from children's events, because we all know they're pedophiles, right? Why not stop all Hispanics driving on the freeway, because of course they're likely to be smuggling drugs! I mean, if racial profiling can stop Al-Qaeda, then of course it can stop every day, two-bit criminals, right?! What are we waiting for, let's get at it!
Re: Passenger attempts to blow up Northwest Airlines flight.
Profiling can be a facet of a much broader system, but the average joe screaming for straight up profiling probably doesn't understand that we can't simply go "Hey, that dude looks Middle Eastern" and have it be an effective screening technique.
The person of question in this situation wasn't Middle Eastern. He was Nigerian.
Besides, terrorists are wack-jobs, but they're not stupid.
They will choose a person who looks nothing like what we're expecting to carry out an assault and we need to be ready for that. Do not think it's beneath a terrorist to find a very "western" looking female to carry out an assault. Or even some garden-varieyt sociopath from Ohio looking to get his name in lights.
I don't think we should underestimate the sneakiness of terrorists.
Profiling, as part of a wider spectrum of threat assessment can be useful, but don't fool yourselves into thinking that we've got this magic weapon that the constitution and ACLU is restricting us from using. That just isn't the case.
Makes great talk radio fodder though.
Profiling can be a facet of a much broader system, but the average joe screaming for straight up profiling probably doesn't understand that we can't simply go "Hey, that dude looks Middle Eastern" and have it be an effective screening technique.
The person of question in this situation wasn't Middle Eastern. He was Nigerian.
Besides, terrorists are wack-jobs, but they're not stupid.
They will choose a person who looks nothing like what we're expecting to carry out an assault and we need to be ready for that. Do not think it's beneath a terrorist to find a very "western" looking female to carry out an assault. Or even some garden-varieyt sociopath from Ohio looking to get his name in lights.
I don't think we should underestimate the sneakiness of terrorists.
Profiling, as part of a wider spectrum of threat assessment can be useful, but don't fool yourselves into thinking that we've got this magic weapon that the constitution and ACLU is restricting us from using. That just isn't the case.
Makes great talk radio fodder though.
Re: Passenger attempts to blow up Northwest Airlines flight.
Even worse, IMO, is ANTI-profiling......or otherwise the pulling out of line of 85yr old ladies and parapalegics, etc, etc in order to NOT be seen as profiling.
Even worse, IMO, is ANTI-profiling......or otherwise the pulling out of line of 85yr old ladies and parapalegics, etc, etc in order to NOT be seen as profiling.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
Re: Passenger attempts to blow up Northwest Airlines flight.
Ask the Israelis about the usefulness of profiling. Until we get serious about actual security rather than the insane appearance of same, we're going to have the same idiotic results.
Whatever you think of Israel, it's worth remembering that the same groups that are trying to blow our stuff up have been trying to blow their stuff up for decades with very little success. Why do you imagine that might be?
Ask the Israelis about the usefulness of profiling. Until we get serious about actual security rather than the insane appearance of same, we're going to have the same idiotic results.
Whatever you think of Israel, it's worth remembering that the same groups that are trying to blow our stuff up have been trying to blow their stuff up for decades with very little success. Why do you imagine that might be?
ILSstud
Well-Known Member
Re: Passenger attempts to blow up Northwest Airlines flight.
"But....Nigeria is near Iraq....go git 'em!"
-Signed, Joe Six Pack.
"But....Nigeria is near Iraq....go git 'em!"
-Signed, Joe Six Pack.
Re: Passenger attempts to blow up Northwest Airlines flight.
I've been to Israel a number of times and have seen them profile. It's not just "Hay, YUR Middle Easturn Lqqkin! geet over here!"
For example, the guy from the Northwest flight. He originated in Nigeria.
Nigeria isn't necessarily the hotbed of Al Quada activity so he probably wouldn't have been profiled, especially on a flight from Amsterdam. We're flying people connection from Africa, Western Europe, Eastern Europe, Asia, the Middle East so it wasn't like he was a single Nigerian on a flight full of Dutch.
Ok, he was Western African. We fly PLAAAAAANELOADS of Western Africans on a daily basis from a variety of cities.
I don't know, maybe it's the mojito, but basic garden variety joe six-pack profiling wouldn't have been effective.
Now, if the airline knew that he bought his ticket in Ghana (another destination of ours), but departed Nigeria (another destination of ours), traveled up to AMS to fly to DTW AND was a person of concern, including not having any checked bags and a small carry on, I think that detective work could have lead to a secondary screening.
Secure travel is going to cost money, but people don't want to spend it, so we'll probably just keep hoping for the best.
LAX to NRT.
"Airline A" says, "$2,239.24 - every passenger is interviewed, background checked, goes through a full body scan, chemical sniffer and metal detector. Every flight is guaranteed to either have an air marshall or an airline-employed security team"
"Airline B" says, "$1,993.42. Take it or leave it."
"Airline A" goes out of business, Airline B oversells.
Or ATL incorporates body scans, chem sniffers, enhanced metal detectors and 15 minutes of behavioral screening and hikes the PFC (Passenger Facility Charge) to $95.
CLT just has metal detectors and advertises "Travel without the hassle!" and has a lower PFC of $15.
Where are the customers going?
I've been to Israel a number of times and have seen them profile. It's not just "Hay, YUR Middle Easturn Lqqkin! geet over here!"
For example, the guy from the Northwest flight. He originated in Nigeria.
Nigeria isn't necessarily the hotbed of Al Quada activity so he probably wouldn't have been profiled, especially on a flight from Amsterdam. We're flying people connection from Africa, Western Europe, Eastern Europe, Asia, the Middle East so it wasn't like he was a single Nigerian on a flight full of Dutch.
Ok, he was Western African. We fly PLAAAAAANELOADS of Western Africans on a daily basis from a variety of cities.
I don't know, maybe it's the mojito, but basic garden variety joe six-pack profiling wouldn't have been effective.
Now, if the airline knew that he bought his ticket in Ghana (another destination of ours), but departed Nigeria (another destination of ours), traveled up to AMS to fly to DTW AND was a person of concern, including not having any checked bags and a small carry on, I think that detective work could have lead to a secondary screening.
Secure travel is going to cost money, but people don't want to spend it, so we'll probably just keep hoping for the best.
LAX to NRT.
"Airline A" says, "$2,239.24 - every passenger is interviewed, background checked, goes through a full body scan, chemical sniffer and metal detector. Every flight is guaranteed to either have an air marshall or an airline-employed security team"
"Airline B" says, "$1,993.42. Take it or leave it."
"Airline A" goes out of business, Airline B oversells.
Or ATL incorporates body scans, chem sniffers, enhanced metal detectors and 15 minutes of behavioral screening and hikes the PFC (Passenger Facility Charge) to $95.
CLT just has metal detectors and advertises "Travel without the hassle!" and has a lower PFC of $15.
Where are the customers going?
Re: Passenger attempts to blow up Northwest Airlines flight.
And I'm not trying to be defeatist, just that that's how people think.
Wild-caught, natural, American Salmon from Alaska, flown in this morning: $18.99/lb at (local grocer)
Farmed, previously-frozen Salmon from Shingzen, China, defrosted last week and food colored because they weren't eating their natural diet of shrimp: $8.99/lbs from Wal Mart.
Who's getting the business?
And I'm not trying to be defeatist, just that that's how people think.
Wild-caught, natural, American Salmon from Alaska, flown in this morning: $18.99/lb at (local grocer)
Farmed, previously-frozen Salmon from Shingzen, China, defrosted last week and food colored because they weren't eating their natural diet of shrimp: $8.99/lbs from Wal Mart.
Who's getting the business?